User Forum

machinesworkinghardforyou · #1 04-05-2006, 04:38

I know this probably will fall on deaf ears, but.....

I was going to purchase Kore until I found out that Kore will not allow your songs to play back tracks with Kore plug ins in them without the hardware attached...... There is no point to this, Native Instruments didn't have to write the code that way, and it's a major PITA IMO.

I'm in the process of ditching all embedded plug ins, PACE protected software, and dongle software. I know for studios it's not that bad, but as a performing musician, and consumer who is moved to make choices with software that I feel isn't limiting my freedoms simply because of their convoluted copy protection, I'm not happy at all that NI are starting down this path.....
I have in the past defended NI on numerous occasions when people moaned about timely updates etc... I'm not unsympathetic, but as a consumer, I feel that I cannot support Kore. I was going to purchase Kore, plus pick up Komplete Care, but not now. It has me thinking about abandoning NI altogether.
I simply will not be tied to more than one machine (the actual computer), it's EXACTLY the reason why Native Instruments have had success, you aren't tied to a hardware sampler, or synth, well Kore just went ahead and screwed that up!

I don't care if the software is limited without Kore, I just want to be able to have the sounds coming from the Kore track, it's not asking much at all. From what I know, the MIDI is coming from the host to the instrument in a Kore track, it seems to me it would actually take more to make it NOT work, than work? That is unsettling.

Please, if you agree with me, post in this thread, it's possible that NI do something about this......

RecordingArts · #2 04-05-2006, 06:02

KORE is already a dongle so I don't think there's any turning back at this point which is too bad.

I agree that for me the beauty of these software plug ins is partly due to their flexibility. You can have Guitar Rig loaded on your G5 Tower, then use the same plug in on your Laptop when you play live...

Or, since one CPU typically doesn't have enough power to run all my virtual instruments and fx plug ins, I often need to use a plug in on two machines at the same time to share processing power. I've got two G5's and a MacBook Pro.

KORE put a big damper on this flexibility. Especially if you were planning on using the KORE hardware as an audio interface on a machine and then just want to run the software on your other machine, you can't.

My suggestion is that they use their normal copy protection which is to license the KORE softeware to run on several machines.

Then, those of us who fall in love with the hardware can buy more KORE hardware controllers if we really want to have it, not because we're forced to.

Jim Aikin · #3 04-05-2006, 06:43

I guess I'll play Devil's advocate here. The question is, how many computers are you planning to use Kore on at any given time? How many hands do you have, in other words? If the answer is, "I only use one computer at a time," then I'm not convinced that the dongleness of the Kore hardware is a huge problem.

Feel free to try to convince me that I'm missing the point. All I'm saying is, it's pretty darn light and portable. The only circumstance in which I could see this being a problem would be if you tend to schlep your laptop down to the local coffee shop and produce music while sipping a latte. (I can't do that, because the music they play is pretty loud, and seeps right through the headphones.)

--Jim Aikin

RecordingArts · #4 04-05-2006, 07:09

Since my whole studio is now "in the box" I use at least two computers at once. A G5 Quad running Digital Performer (with a few virtual instruments and FX plug ins) and another G5 which runs as a host for more virtual instruments and FX. They each have their own audio interface and are patched together with MIDI and SPDIF Audio. I use teleport 3.7 to allow one keyboard and mouse to control both machines.

When you are using Virtual Instruments like BFD drums triggered by an eDrum kit, Ivory Piano, Miroslav Philharmonic, MOTU's MSI, NI's Guitar Rig while recording into Digital Performer with buffer sizes of 256 or less I can't be done on one machine. The fastest Mac available a Quad G5 with 8 Gigs of Ram, 2 10k rpm internal drives and an external SATA RAID will bog down when playing back and recording tracks while trying to trigger all the virtual instruments, so it requires a second machine.

The bottom line is the market will dictate what happens with this product. With other solutions from companies like MUSE and Open Labs people will have other choices to make.

(I never recommend being an advocate for the devil. he'll turn around and run you through when you're not looking...)

Jim Aikin wrote:

I guess I'll play Devil's advocate here. The question is, how many computers are you planning to use Kore on at any given time? How many hands do you have, in other words? If the answer is, "I only use one computer at a time," then I'm not convinced that the dongleness of the Kore hardware is a huge problem.

Feel free to try to convince me that I'm missing the point. All I'm saying is, it's pretty darn light and portable. The only circumstance in which I could see this being a problem would be if you tend to schlep your laptop down to the local coffee shop and produce music while sipping a latte. (I can't do that, because the music they play is pretty loud, and seeps right through the headphones.)

--Jim Aikin

robertroff · #5 04-05-2006, 08:45

Same story here.

I was just about to break out the credit card until I saw this catch.

I like to use my laptop in different places, and always having to have the kore controller attached just to play back tracks you started using kore would be a huge bother. Even if I'm just going to the couch with my portable keyboard. That takes a usb slot, logic dongle in the other. done. I'm supposed attach some knobs instead of a keyboard? right. or just have a usb port all the time as well as two pieces of gear attached whenever I'm away from the desk? a little awkward, and not so portable anymore.

I'm not at all angry about it, N.I. have a right to do what they please, but they just plain lost a sale here because of this nonsense (and probably many more).

Rob

ew · #6 04-05-2006, 10:54

In your scenario, Rob- why couldn't you bounce the tracks and archive the MIDI tracks? Do you really need the plugin functioning as a plugin? If you're so cramped that you can't use the controller, I'd imagine a keyboard would be out of the question as well (after all, the controller's smaller than a Remote25 or any keyboard of the same size). At least then you'd have an audio track of what you're doing, and with the MIDI track archibved, you can always delete the audio track when you get back to your full size machine.

Jim brought up a good point. Unless you have multiple licenses, your NI software can only be USED on one machine at a time. You can have it installed on two (or in Kore's case, many) machines, but you're only supposed to have one of the machines running that program at any given time.

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/inde...yprotection_us

ew

sowari · #7 04-05-2006, 11:49

Jim Aikin wrote:

I guess I'll play Devil's advocate here. The question is, how many computers are you planning to use Kore on at any given time? How many hands do you have, in other words? If the answer is, "I only use one computer at a time," then I'm not convinced that the dongleness of the Kore hardware is a huge problem.

Feel free to try to convince me that I'm missing the point. All I'm saying is, it's pretty darn light and portable. The only circumstance in which I could see this being a problem would be if you tend to schlep your laptop down to the local coffee shop and produce music while sipping a latte. (I can't do that, because the music they play is pretty loud, and seeps right through the headphones.)

--Jim Aikin

for me the main point is that sometimes it would be nice to configure "sound" and "performances" in Kore, without having to use the Controller.

many of us travel a lot, on trains and planes and then stay in hotels. whilst on a 3 hour train journey it is great to get the laptop out and work music. tables in trains and planes are small...there wouldn't be room for a laptop AND a Kontroller.

so, having to ALWAYS connect the controller to the laptop, really does cause us travelling musicians BIG problems.

for me Kore could be a rival to Ableton Live. in Live you don't need an interface to work on stuff on your laptop, with Kore you do :-(

sowari

machinesworkinghardforyou · #8 05-05-2006, 02:42

sowari wrote:

for me the main point is that sometimes it would be nice to configure "sound" and "performances" in Kore, without having to use the Controller.

Exactly! I take nothing away from home except the laptop, so that I can remix and arrange songs I'm currently working on in my free time.
I already ditched working on songs in Logic because of the dongle, and Live gets all my attention on the road. I simply can't see turning back the clock of progress for what is obviously to me another copy protection limitation...

ewistrand wrote:

Jim brought up a good point. Unless you have multiple licenses, your NI software can only be USED on one machine at a time.

This is prickly isn't it? I was told by a NI representative that I could in fact run Reactor on my desktop, and Absynth on the laptop, as long as I was the one using both machines. I was hesitant to buy into Komplete if it limited my ability to use each individual plug in on a different machine. I would have passed on it and gotten a single license to Reactor instead of trading in my Absynth license. I'm pretty rigid about not running two instances of the same plug in on different machines, but I think it a little ludicrous to assume that anybody who gave up individual licenses for Komplete should be restricted to a single computer if their CPU is bogging down.
Sure, I would be willing to bet the EULA is harsher than that, and sez we cannot in fact do anything but run Komplete on one machine at a time etc. but we are not Krack users here, this isn't a small business stretching their EULA to several employees, this is one home user, witrh two slow machines...... Personally it won't cause me to run out and buy another copy of Komplete if NI are that strict with their EULA, I'll simply get new synths from another manufacturer, and upgrade my computer. It sure as hell won't make me like the Kore dongle scenario any more than I do.

sowari · #9 05-05-2006, 08:45

the way i understand it, i could actually do a gig with Reaktor running on my G4 and also my old G3 Pizmo. i have registered for both of these computers.

with Kore i could install on loads of different computers but only be able to use one of them at a time.... because of the Controller :-(

all i want is the usual 2 machine NI registrations and the ability to choose which of the computers i work on. At the moment i have it on my G4 and my Mac Mini. i use the g4 for gigs, and i don't want to have to take the Contoller with me just so i can do some programming during quiet moments and long train journeys.

that means i can't work in standalone configerations OR within Live if i want to use Kore, unless i take the Controller.

:-(

sowari

JazzFinger · #10 05-05-2006, 09:53

Here`s another KORE-user being unhappy with that "dongle-ish" way the KORE software works. NI, please keep with the 2-machines installation-concept, even for KORE. As stated above it shouldn`t be any problem technically to run KORE without the controller.

If being afraid of illegal copies, NI could use an activation process, that requires the controller to be connected every once in awhile to maintain KORE running.

Again the current situation shows that unfair treatment of the honest customer being punished with all kinds of discomforts and limitations (dongles, activation procedures requiring web-access etc.) that someone using a stolen / patched version does not have to deal with ! In this case it would mean that KORE might be usable without the controller some day, but not by the loyal NI customer....

Regards, JazzFinger

GeorgeClay · #11 05-05-2006, 13:41

I use FXTeleport very extensively. (3 DAWs)

The current copy protection would only allow me to use KORE on one Computer. I would like to extend the wishlist to have at least 3 allowed installs for every user.

Juergen

Rusty · #12 05-05-2006, 17:18

The obvious solution here would be a USB dongle akin to the old Reaktor 4 one, no? (ie: The size of a flash drive)

Just a small little thing, with a bit of code, so it is seen as the Kore controller for those of us who travel.

RecordingArts · #13 05-05-2006, 17:44

Yes. I have one iLok that's able to hold authorizations for many of my fx plug-ins and virtual instruments. I'd rather not even use it, but at least it's small and portable...

www.ilok.com

Rusty wrote:

The obvious solution here would be a USB dongle akin to the old Reaktor 4 one, no? (ie: The size of a flash drive)

Just a small little thing, with a bit of code, so it is seen as the Kore controller for those of us who travel.

machinesworkinghardforyou · #14 06-05-2006, 08:43

Just to let NI know. The reason I care so much is I really have been very happy with my NI stuff so far. I don't mind the two license online deal, or the wait for updates, I've, for the most part, thought NI had one of the brands of copy protection I was satisfied with as a consumer.

I'm not a fan of dongles, or PACE, or CD verification. Though I know this is all probably too late, and the reasons for making the hardware a sort of dongle outweighed the possible backlash, I would just like any developer to know who might be reading this that though it's possible you lose a few sales to krack users because of a mild copy protection scheme, the growing sentiment seems to be towards buying into software that uses user friendly methods.

RecordingArts · #15 06-05-2006, 08:58

Let's just make it like Guitar Rig and Guitar Rig 2. You can use the hardware if you like but you don't have to.