Honest criticism: Remix Decks +F1 touted as "Ableton in Traktor"

Discussion in 'KONTROL F1' started by runningoutofspace, Mar 25, 2012.

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  1. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    (vs. Live and Traktor Pro 2 that you already have)

    Honest criticism: Releasing F1 controllers adding Remix decks to Traktor Pro 2 -vs.- Traktor Pro 2 running Live and everything you already have/use isn't going to be the "answer" to the Bridge

    If you've already been running Ableton Live and know how to slave it to Traktor (on one system) you've probably been watching this development over the last two months and are now smiling at the fact that you don't really need F1.

    The Remix decks addition is good but it isn't the answer to gap between NI and Serato/Abelton's "the Bridge"

    The already existing capability of running Live in parallel to Traktor (which the virtual midi I/O slaves Live damn near flawlessly) has only one drawback - screen inconvenience.

    Putting in clip launching and selling a new controller is just another way to control users.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  2. lethal_pizzle

    lethal_pizzle NI Product Owner

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    Of course you can do more with Traktor plus live if you want to get fancy. This is just a sample launcher with an extremely well integrated piece of hardware that DJs can use without faffing around with Ableton. That you can scratch.

    I think you're seeing a conflict where there isn't one, tbh. You can carry on being advanced and doing all that stuff you said to slave them together, whilst others may choose the simpler, 'it just works' option.

    If the success of the S2 and S4 are anything to go by, some people prefer a tightly integrated solution at the expense of flexibility of configuration desireable by advanced users.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  3. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    Lethal...you're drinking too much of the COOL-aide.

    I'll ignore the "advanced" jab. Trakor+Live is a known capability that works and the F1 is just a way to sell you something you don't really need if you already have Live and controllers.

    Despite Traktor winning over more users than Serato has, Serato still managed to integrate Abelton via the Bridge which offered a capability relevant to the large majority of users in this community that also use Abelton in addition to whatever DVS they DJ with. Even if they (Serato) didn't get the users, a fraction of Ableton users actually perform with Live sets. NI actually already answered to the Bridge by publicly informing users on how they can set up the virtual midi link that helps them run and sync Traktor+Live set.

    The only issue was screen realestate when using the two on one system.

    Adding control over a newly added clip launching capability isn't actually the same as what you can do with Live, running in addition to your main DVS. While any sane person won't even think of performing with an incomplete song or jumping around forever with clips and samples...you still need to be organized and play something coherent so I wonder if they've really thought this one out.

    Ableton wasn't in competition with Traktor or Maschine...It's outside of that. I'm not worried but I see this controllerism and "gotta have the latest" craze rearing its ugly head to the point where we are creating more loop jumping idiots unable to move coherently beyond a few bars and scratching it like beat juggling by buttons.

    This post ain't gonna stop the release date or change anyone's mind...For the people with nothing else and not using Abelton in paralel, it's all good. Just know that like the X1, when it came out - alot of what it did was already there in older things (Maschine was one of them). Like when Maschine 1.7 came out, running plug-ins was a great idea but not as smart as in Live, which you could still perform it with.

    They've got a long way to go but the Production and DJ divisions ideas are taking us all down this road towards......their own end.
  4. lethal_pizzle

    lethal_pizzle NI Product Owner

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    When did calling someone 'advanced' become an insult?

    confused.com
    ---
    You've got a point here. Now everyone will be able to be a loop jumping idiot. God help us all.
  5. kraal

    kraal NI Product Owner

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    i think the remix decks are not for the ableton users but for the dj's like me that really don't want to get in the whole ableton dj style. This is a mid grownd for the dj's that want to use loops but are not quite on the producer side of things.
  6. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    Bottomline: For some Traktor+Live w/controllers users, the F1 controllers aren't going to be as important as the Remix decks unless NI restricts other controllers from mapping completely to the new decks via the software. If they do that, Live users won't need to use the Remix decks and can keep on running Live in parallel to Traktor with the controller stuff we've already got.

    I just hope they don't go down the "pay to play" trail in 2.5...the numbers and pre-packaged bundled options have already hurt some.
  7. kraal

    kraal NI Product Owner

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    i doubt they will limit the mapping. the f1 like the x1 is just convenience gives you the knobs and buttons you need so you dont need to go out and 'make or find' them
  8. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    The fact you will be able to grab clips on the fly and edit them with the F1 while you are playing is a huge deal to me. Using the bridge i would imagine that all the ableton content would have to be pre prepared? i dont know that much about it.

    Using the bridge can you record stuff from serato into an ableton clip and trigger it without stuffing around too much? if at all?

    With your setup can you? could you the scratch or slip those clips in time?

    NI were never really saying that the remix decks were going to give you all the functionality of Ableton. Just clip recording and adjusting and playing, in an Ableton session style format, but with the advantage of the proper DJ workflow of Traktor.

    FTR im a huge ableton fan, and not having a go at all.

    I would say the the remix deck with have all the functionality open to mapping, then you will surely have the best of both worlds. here's hoping.

    Also this is only the second major phase of the sample decks.

    Can't imagine what's already in the pipeline, Maschine integration without JACK OSX or similar. I'd like to see that.

    Peace.
  9. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    It's not that important.
  10. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    "F1s aren't going to be as important as the Remix decks unless NI decides to restrict full mapping for non-NI controllers."

    I don't think that they will either so you may not even need them if you've been using other controllers for Live (just remap them). However, all should be aware that there is a high probabilty that if you do not have the Scratch version of Traktor Pro 2 you'll need all that it takes to scratch timecode/deck control over the clips (like in the video).

    Meanwhile, running Traktor Pro 2 and Ableton Live on one system and sync'd via virtual midi is still great. So NI adding clip launching to their decks won't actually kill Ableton Live as the performance software of choice, just yet. Live still allows you to use whatever you've got - the only inconvenience is that if you want the best sync, you have to use one computer and suffer from screen realestate issues between the two GUIs (Traktor and Live).

    No biggie...Use F3 and map your controllers for 2.5 (hopefully).
  11. jbfuller

    jbfuller NI Product Owner

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    I don't have Ableton, don't plan on buying it. I have Traktor, know how to use it, and I love NI's integrated solutions. I am the target market, I want an F1.

    TBH, I'm not sure how well my computer would do running Ableton and Traktor together, it would get hosed up.

    My honest criticism is that it is easy to figure out a way to do many things with a combination of hardware & software but not everyone has the time, patience, know-how, or money to get there. Some people just want things to work. If you can do the other thing that's cool too.
  12. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    It seems to me that this is the key. Ableton may be great, and it certainly has 10,000 features that Traktor doesn't have (and probably won't even with the F1) but often times, ten well integrated features will be of much more use to people.

    FWIW, I've yet to see ANYONE use the Bridge. Moreover, none of the SSL DJs that I know (maybe not the best statistical sample, but still) seem to be the least bit interested in the Bridge. That's not to say that there aren't people out there using it, but from everything I've seen, it really seems to be in the whole category of "cool in theory."

    Personally, I'm not 100% sold on the F1 yet (I love the integrated nature of the S4 so much that I'm not sure that I want to complicate it with more gear, even if it is awesome) but I'm willing to give NI a bit of latitude on it because I think they did a very good job with the sample decks.
  13. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    Not pushing anyone to buy Ableton Live -instead of- the F1 and Remix decks and you might want to rethink saying that you are the "target market". I know that you meant it's just for you but you sound like you've been exploited.

    I realize you meant that you're best to take it in and use this new stuff because you don't do that other stuff (with Live and you don't need it). My original point was that this new territory NI is happy about is good but just a borrowed concept with a new controller. They should have promoted it right and not mentioned Ableton, that fully explored program that could kick their DJ @$$es one day, if they'd even bother making a DJ version of Live. (not Ms. Pinky)
  14. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Moderator

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    i can surely say that if i want to use some kind of sample/remix decks that i want to do it

    a) in traktor,
    b) with timecode and
    c) without preparation in another software

    i'm a tech geek and especially a dj gear lover.
    so yes, i'm in the target market as well and i have no problems in saying that. ^^
  15. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    I'd have to agree. For all of the features that Ableton has and for whatever tricks you could implement for running both it and Traktor at the same time, I don't think there's a solution that's as elegant as pressing a single button and having a looped section of a playing track available as a sample. Ableton has always seemed like a very static experience to me whereas Traktor is much more fluid. If I wanted to play a pre-planned set every time I played, I might go with Ableton, but I don't. And, to me, that's where Traktor wins in a huge way. From what I can tell, that's not going to be any less true with the F1 and the remix decks...
  16. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    Yeah..yeah..

    Like I said before...it's not that important. I do like the remix decks and I know that the K2 is best suited to work with NI's new deck update.

    On the last defense of my original point, I was pointing out that while this update gives users clip launching capability from within Traktor's GUI, it still falls short of what "the Bridge" did or what running Live in parallel allows you to do. Nuf said?

    Live is a whole other beast that if you do use it and use Traktor too - running it in parallel to Traktor isn't so bad, just hard with two GUIs. The guys at Serato had no major user base for the Bridge because all of that hip-hop no sync schmuz isn't into Live that much. They did it anyway and the Bridge makes it easier for Live Users to continue manipulating a Live session within Serato's GUI.

    Uck..we don't play with that.

    NI is likely onto the next evolution of Maschine or something else so it's possible that when we get to Maschine 2.0 or Traktor Pro 3, we'll have something that will integrate even better into Traktor and give Live a run for its money.
  17. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    Two things, first, I went back and re-read your original post, and I do think that you overlook the advantages that having this fully integrated into Traktor will bring. In all fairness though, since the product isn't shipping, I guess we won't know to what extent for a little while.

    Second, do you have any experience with the Bridge? I don't. And like I said before, despite the fact that I know lots of SSL DJs, I don't know anyone who knows anything about The Bridge. Honestly, I would like to have the opportunity to talk to someone that actually uses it because it seems like an intriguing idea, but I get the feeling that it's a bit unwieldily to use...
  18. jbfuller

    jbfuller NI Product Owner

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    I don't care if I sound like I'm being exploited, why would anyone care? That's hilarious. Maybe I gotta protect my rep?

    Fair enough that this is a borrowed concept, but I'd be hard pressed to hear anything that has come out recently from anyone that isn't a borrowed concept. Albeton Live wasn't a unique concept when it came out. I'm sure they're not afraid of mentioning it, as I don't see that NI is in direct competition with Live. In fact, I'm sure that NI understands that there are a lot of users out there that use many of their products as VSTs within live, as NI caters to electronically created music I'm sure they are more than happy that people like NI products within Live.

    You're creating a competition that doesn't exist. The idea that there are people out there that would look at the F1 and Traktor and say "well I could just do that whenever Ableton, that fully explored program that could kick their DJ ASSes one day, if they'd even bother making a DJ version of Live (not Ms. Pinky)"
  19. runningoutofspace

    runningoutofspace Forum Member

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    I've got no interest in that. It's not important.

    (Moving on)

    A negative notion about "DJing with Ableton" was implied in the comments made during the speech at the original F1 reveal/NI Party in January. That's where that came from. NI showcased the F1+Remix decks as their "answer" to an apparent problem with DJ'ing with Ableton. That's the truth. Find the video if you haven't seen it but it's not that important.

    The truth is that everyone should know that Live users actually "perform" when they are using it "live". So technically, Live users aren't DJ'ing with it unless they are using something like Ms. Pinky that allows you to "DJ" with Live. Running Live in parallel with Traktor allows you to perform in Live and DJ in Traktor so NI actually said something dumb to sell the clip launching abilty in decks and a new controller as their "Remix" concept.

    Last point: We can all agree that the F1 is purposed and integrated best for Traktor's Remix decks and it's going to be good for that. Meanwhile, its not like the rest of the world is getting left behind. Allen & Heath had the Xone :K2 coming since October and their controller is "open" so it is geared at DJ'ing with Traktor and also for performing with Live. It will make a noticeable impact as well.

    This is one is done.
  20. jbfuller

    jbfuller NI Product Owner

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    Live users do not actually perform, they push buttons.

    I've got nothing against it, but be honest.
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