A B4 users view of Vintage Organs

I went ahead and got the crossgrade from B4II to Vintage Organs while the deal was still on. I did not get a lot of time with my DAW on my last break from my travels but I spent a good portion of it with Vintage Organs.

I have the full version of Kontakt running on Vista 64 on a PC with an i7 processor, 6GB of RAM and 3 seperate disks for programs, audio and samples.

I think this time NI has got it almost right and finally come up with a product that, for most (but not all) users, can be considered a replacement for B4 II.

First the down side it has a much heavier footprint requiring a lot more disk space, CPU and RAM and I am sure this will put some people off, particularly those who play live. IMHO the interface is not as intuitive as B4II.

I am not right the person to say which sounds the most authentic but I think, overall, Vintage Organs has the most pleasing sound to my ear, but don't expect a major jump ahead in sound quality. Like B4II, a trip through the presets (I should say instruments as in the context of Vintage Organs presets has another meaning) will bring up instantly recognizable sounds from well know recordings.

One objection I have heard being made to a sample based instrument is the load time for samples. It's reasonably quick on my system but it would still be an issue in a live situation. NI addresses this to some extent as each instrument has 12 presets controlled by key switches. Each preset is a set of drawbar registrations and one can switch instantly from one to another. All the presets in an instrument share the same amplifier setting etc. I did not get around to making my own instruments but I think this is as simple as making all the necessary edits, then saving as a new instrument.

It appears the samples for all the drawbars are loaded initially so one can alter the drawbars in real time without waiting for samples to reload.

By default both the sustain peddle and mod wheel are mapped to the Leslie speed. This is assignable and I found mapping the sustain to Leslie speed and the mod wheel to the swell peddle work in my setup. Obviously swell would be better controlled from a pedal, but I don't have one.

On most instruments pitchbend is set up to control drawbar settings so, for example bending up increases the proportion of higher harmonics and bending down decreases the volume. This can be useful.

The transistor organs are much better implementation that the replacement tone wheels sets used for this purpose in B4 II. I have not yet decided if I like the Vox Continental in Vintage Organs or Hollow Sun’s excellent Vox Continental Kontakt instrument best, they do sound a bit different, Hollow Sun's also has fully variable drawbar and amplifier setting and is a bit more "raw" it's probably more authentic but VO’s interface is better. I think both will get used as they complement each other.

Most instruments default to a keyboard split. I initially had problems setting up Vintage Organs MIDI split option so upper and lower manuals and the pedal were on different MIDI channels. It was one of those "kick yourself for being stupid" moments when I realized the instrument was set to receive one channel. If you use MIDI split you need to set the input to Omni.

I have yet to investigate if it’s possible to do more creative routing of effects inside Kontakt and insert an effect between the organ and the amplifier.

I think it's a great credit to B4 IIs programmers that it still stands up well against this much more modern and resource hungry application.

I think I will still find a use for my B4 II but Vintage Organs will probably become the go to organ, not least because it dose not require bridging to my 64 bit host (Sonar 8.5.3)and this should ensure longer future compatibility. However I have no need or inclination to replace B4 II in any existing projects. I still have ’57 Organ installed but I am seriously considering reclaiming the disk space. It got little use before and I can't see it getting any use now.

 

Thank you for taking the time to post this. Knowing the differences will be useful to those of us who have to make a decision.

In my experience, both Cubase and Sonar 64 bit hosts have some hiccups with 32 bit VST's. The various bridges don't always help, so I stick to the 32 bit versions of the hosts for now.

If memory should become an issue down the road, then I'll probably just start freezing/bouncing. Or maybe I'll use the 32 bit hosts for older products such as Acoustik, Elektrik, Pro-53, and B4II, then bounce those to audio files and import them (as plain audio files) into a new project under my 64 bit host.

I'm relieved to hear that somebody likes the new organ sounds. But I'm still disappointed that NI has not seen fit to maintain some of their great sounding older products.

 

Heh. I saved my hard drive space and loading times, and bought GSi VB3 instead. Best move I've ever made.

 

Sonar 8.5.3 64 is what I use and I can say I have had too many hiccups. I lost the use of some older DXi plugins but it was no big deal. Jbridge is a useful third party application that usually works id the host's native bridge does not work.

I have had no problems with B4 II in Sonar 64 bit, my only concern is future compatability.

Benefits become apparent in a project running Kontakt (with several instruments loaded), Superior Drummer and Yellowtools independence (also with several instruments). Plus a bunch of other VSTis and effects. I can mix straight from the VSTis, without any intermediate bouncing or freezing.

I will only buy 32 bit plug ins now if there is no 64 bit alterative (or the 64 bit version is not up to scratch) or its a deal just too geed to miss.

If GSi had a 64 bit version out before Vintage Organs, they would have got the sale.

 

I just wanted to point out that B4 and Vintage Organs are technically much closer than many of you might think, because both draw on individual tonewheel samples to authentically simulate the sound. B4 was not primarily modelling-based, and neither is Vintage Organs based on conventional multi-samples.

 

GSi plugins work great via Reaper's internal bit-bridge on 64-bit systems.

 

For the record, in case my comments were misconstrued, GSi plug ins work perfectly in Sonar 64 using Sonar's Bit bridge. As does B4 II.

90%+ of 32 bit VSTis will work using Sonar's Bitbridge, most of the others will work in Sonar using JBridge.

 

Thomas, that's the first I've heard of this.

I have observed that NI often kills one fabulous product...or rather, starves it and leaves it to die on the vine. After a period of time, NI rolls out a whole new product in that same genre. For example, B4-II and Vintage Organs. At first, there is no upgrade path for the consumer becasue the new product is "different" from the old one, and it is that "difference" that is touted. Maybe my lack of knowledge is due to NI's marketing?

Finally, after it has been out for a year or three, it gets rolled into Komplete +1. But by then, many consumers have moved on to an alternative found from an NI competitor.

That's how I see it. Now, I do find K7 to be an exciting upgrade, and it does come with VO. But for now I have other priorities that rank higher. If I decide to upgrade to K7, I'll certainly try out VO now that I know more about it. But for a lot of people, it may be too late to be an actual inticement.

 

This is probably a misunderstanding, a half-price upgrade option for B4 owners has been available ever since Vintage Organs launched:

http://co.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=4101&prid=326

 

Hi Thomas:

Maybe it is a misunderstanding on my part, but that is my WHOLE POINT. Native Instruments is hurting their own brand identity by continually playing the game of "kill-then-rebirth under new name".

It's too hard to keep track of it all, so the result is that the customer begins to lose track and eventually loses interest.

Me, I no longer bother looking at every new instrument NI comes out with. Blah, been there, done that; and it's just too nit-picky for me. I'll just wait to see what's in the next version of Komplete and even then, I usually only upgrade every other version of Komplete.

There must be a better way!

 

Last night I used Vintage Organs live for the first time. I normally use VB-3 in Kore 2 in my 32bit machine. Last night, I loaded Kontakt in my 64bit laptop. I needed an acoustic piano, organ, Electric Piano and one special sample effect.

It worked perfectly! After I got a handle on how VO worked I began to like it. In this case I needed to like so I could do all this on a laptop. I ended up running it dry and using the Ventilator for the Leslie which gave it just an extra bit of realism. At first I didn't like the keyclick but discovered I could change the attack and decay just enough to soften the click without making it sound or play like a pipe organ.

All in all I would use it again in a similar situation. However, when playing on my other machine it's VB-3 all the way. Anyway, thanks for the options!

 

B4II vs. VO

Hey Thomas,

I am a professional musician, got 3 original B3 with original Leslies and I play them live and in my studios.
Sometimes there is a problem, getting my B3 to the venue and I am not sure what I can expect from the house...
So I prepared myself taking the B4II on a MacBook pro with me.
I tested them all... Logic and the ProTools- simulations... B4II is FAR the best!

________________

I can tell you a little story:
during a live- recording some bar of a song my original B3 was not recorded. For a DVD in the postproduction I replaced that with the B4II. If ANYONE can tell me the exact switchpoint from the B4II to the original B3 in the mix, I will pay for some whiskey!
;-)
_______________

Since I use the NEO VENTILATOR instead of the B4- Leslie simulation, I can live with this setup.


Of course I bought the "upgrade" to the VO.
But my disappointment is that big!
VO has no "eggs", no vintage scream... lush keyclick, lush percussion...
if you switch percussion or vibrato, nothing happens until you re-trigger the notes...

You will have reasons to change. I got a lot more reasons to stay with the B4II
IF I need to use the software.
My only fear is, that sometimes the B4II will not work on more modern comps and OSX...

 

I use B4II with Kore 2 live and absolutely love it! Once you setup the controller and have full drawbars contol, swell and leslie, the rest is gravy. I feel like I'm wrestling a gorilla (a good thing) again. I don't use presets perse. I rather manipulate the instrument in real-time.
Great thread.

 

I would love to hear a demo of your Drawbar swells while braking the Leslie emulation. Until then I can only base my evalutaion on the demos here that show nothing of the instruments realtime capabilites.

 

All I can tell you is, if you have ever worked a Hammond, you will have no problem using B4II in a live situation. I am using it as a plug in in Kore 2 along with other NI instruments while triggering samples. No glitches or any artifacts are present in any performances. I was hesitant at first but now, I am a devotee of NI!
Just go for it!

 

Not even a stero file in realtime...?
No need for drums or anything, just a nice brake action while you swell the top 4 drawbars, or top 5 if you aren't using Percussion.
Mucho Appreciation from another devotee of drawbar Organs........