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a letter to NI and the traktor user community

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR 3' started by jay michael, Jan 29, 2008.

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  1. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    Thomas agreed to me that he to felt this was an inportant
    feature of traktor and said he would try to put the priority
    of this fix higher up the list.... that was where he left it.
    if key detection can be done within traktor that would be awesome.... for what its worth i have used mixed in key but
    found rapid evolution to be consistantly more accurate than
    mixed in key... and its free.
  2. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    I completely agree with what you said. if you have the time
    to prep a set ahead of time traktor works great. its when you
    have to deal with a rapid influx of new music and have to
    work on the fly is where i find traktor work flow to be sluggish and would prefer to just play off cd's. improvement of the beatgridding system, more quick and intuitive effects features, ie presets would be valuable in improving this.
  3. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    i am so all about this and have spent countless hours on my idea of a more intuative and programmable looper and wave grid. This should be developed with thoughts of the many other platforms that users are coming from and their knowledge of how they work with loops. the beat gridding falls into the same thing and can be worked with at the exact same time

    information and its attachment to the files that traktor uses is already surpassing the analysis files of ableton. Its capacity is completely shallow(ten loops ten cue points) by comparison but users are working with it because it is simple and intuative. and it sounds good. and it works in real time in the mix.

    If this capacity can grow and be more controlled with finely tunable gear then it is sure to catch on and take off as one of the best loopers and set-up tools in the industry. Ive been messing around with loops many times and said to myself "now this should be available to abletons system to play. I need to be able to cut this out and play it else where, this loop sounds so good" and there are other times when im editing in peak and setting up loops there good stuff comes up. And to work with it in traktor i have to cut up the song and then load the loops individually into traktor. IF I COULD BUILD traktors cue /bg/structure and loops in peak and open that in traktor awesome.-- if i could work with peaks cue points and loops in traktor awesome--if traktor had its own gui with draggable points and intuative controller implementation --super awesome.

    The limitation of a program and its particular feel can cause one to be intuative with different characteristics and perception. Making this info available to traktor would be grand. Or making traktor intuative on this level even grander --even better. but i knOw things should be simple. I think its time to start drawing again.

    I know that a more complex gui and these improvements would mean more issues in a live setting as compared to the simplicity of the current system. And thats not what its directed at . Traktor scratch, again needs to be the simple stable app, traktor studio the setup utility. These two coulod hold hands and be winning three legged races across the universe. :D

    Attached Files:

  4. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

    I'd love it if Traktor could read Ableton .asd files. I currently have my whole music collection from the start of 2006 gridded in Traktor and Ableton and am working backwards to get all my music in there. Having Traktor read Ableton would cut my work more than half as I find Ableton easier to grid in.

  5. djfitty

    djfitty Forum Member

    A new beat grid system would be great if it would allow easy adjusting on the fly. I would love to be able to quickly change midi mapping of what I actually see on the screen to buttons and knobs on my controller with out going into pref dialog. Its almost a must at a live gig. 10 cell Sampler with sync. Key display. one big wave display for decks a & b instead of the 2 small ones. I love Traktors browser even though exporting playlist to file omits alot of songs. Just my two cents
  6. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    ableton's analysis file is seperate from the actual track. and from ableton-because ableton does not keep information about each track stored in the tracks file tag/stripe or in a master file like traktor's playlist.

    In order to read ableton's information, traktor has to have the capability to read those analysis files content and currently that would be stretch. Im certain of it. There would have to be a utility that creates the traktor stripe data based on ableton's analysis information and then writes that data to tag+stripe endcodement on the data of the audio file -- it would have to be completely same same with with traktor traktor. And this may not be possible because ableton and traktor are two completely different players. I thought that it might be possible for ableton to read traktor's cue and loop points and for traktor to read cue points that are set-up in peak. somewhat like ableton can read cue points that are set -up in peak .. (but that hasn't been happening for me lately because the external editor button in ableton is missing in version 6. and that really pisses me off.) Ive heard it s back though ..

    ok so resolution.

    today I set up two navigation devices with different movement resolutions. One is the track pad of the powerbook and the other is the apple mighty mouse.

    the track pad is set up for navigating around the screen and the width of the track pad is basically the width of the screen. both directions.
    meaning if i slide my finger across the track pad then the pointer will move the width of the screen .

    The external mighty mouse is set up at maximum resoultion. This is possible to configure differently in the apples mouse/keyboard preferences. as are repeat rates on keys and resolulution of the track ball on the mighty mouse which can control knobs and ther values in traktor.

    I have been setting this up so that i can navigate with the track pad and then manipulate audio and transport controls with them mouses.

    of great interest is the pitch slider. because this gives me a good idea of measurement in relation to what the mouse is doing in real space.

    I set up a measurement area grid. In inches --sorrey guys.. no metric grid. And figured out that the pointer movement can only work with the pitch slider at 50% of its screen capacity. so instead of having what would be 10 inches of travel on the mouse to control the pitch fader there is five inches. I don't know exactly how traktor reads the DATA that the mouses movements are living by, but it seems like the area of the mouses movement on the screen could be equal to the amount of fine control by the pitch fader. making the mouse one VERY accurate pitch fader. I also use the mouse for scrubbing audio and messing with the waveform while its playing. Having this degree of long throw adjustability makes the mouse more active and basically aerobic.

    This is one area that could be greatly improved by an addtional input variable that succeeds in doubling the computer's navigation resolution as it is available to traktor. This would give me double the adjustability and movement for scratching scrubbing and pitchsliding with the mouse. At an 8% slider setting I could have ten inches of movement on the mouse and do an awesome job with the pitch slider for fine tuning. this would also double the capabilities of the pitch slider when set to other settings of 35 and 50% and 100% as well.

    I think I noticed this when I first got the program and imediately called up NI and started blabbing about it. I don't rememebr though i can't believe I wouldn't .. im pretty vocal about things.. :confused: .. have a good feeling I did. But that doesn't matter. This should be changed if it is possible.

    I mean look at what is possible with the pitch slider.. Its almost twice as BIG :p .. mmmmm yummy butter-fader -- an additional five inches of travel. Now this could really make a difference.. ;)

    This has got to make sense to the smart Brains that are designing this.. DO IT!:) I WANT IT:p hahahaha. no really. this would totally highlight what is a very sweet pitch bending/control mechanism and also give better control to all the other slide type features. no other controller has a 10" fader on it! if traktor could do this it would be the go-to simply because nothing else does. like alot of things traktor does. I love it..

    Attached Files:

  7. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    nope, we mods had no *GO* to reveal this fact so far - i was waiting since months for that...
    i'm so happy, that the info is out now! :D

    but as additional note to all: this will happen in the next major upgrade, not in the next small update.

    (anyways, once again, a users wish communicated through the various channels - support and forums moderators - gets fulfilled when it's possible!)
  8. DjCyberMix_Tf

    DjCyberMix_Tf NI Product Owner

    In last times I don't have so much time to read good the forum, but today I've read the whole thread. Sometimes it was a bit difficult to follow the discussion, but I can try to explain my vision about.
    I mean Traktor 3 is probably the best mixing software to use with a controller (we will talk about this later) that have a very good reputation, but know it's time to make some important choice about the future.
    But first I want to talk about something that really I don't understand.
    I mean that the question about the pitch resolution is really strange.
    As old member of some important italian djs forums and moderator of the italian forum dedicated to the digital djing I've discussed long long long time about beatmatching and the mixing softwares. In the end most of the italian djs agree about one point: use a software to mix and make manual beatmatching is not reasonable. To come to this result we have started from this question: who is the dj?
    The answer it can't be "who find the beatmatch between two songs", this is only the "manual side" of the djs job. I've started to do dj in 1983 using the Lenco turntables and the old djs can understand how was difficult the beatmatching with these instruments. In 90s I've mixed using four Technics 1200, but I've always thought beatmatching is not something so difficult to do and not so important to judge a dj.
    Use the mixing software without push the sync button is an obsolete way to use these instruments. When I test other mixing softwares I try to make the manual beatmatching only to test a bit the functionality, but the real test of the sync engine is using the sync button, because this is the "normal use". I mean that consider the mixing software like two turntables or two cdj is really crazy.
    We continue to hear people that mean that do djing is "touch something black that turn around", but djing is something different..... Please we can do one step beyond.....

    Traktor 3.x is a software that not crash so easy and often the reason of the crash is'nt Traktor, but a bad configuration of the computer. I use Traktor from 2002 and I've used it with various pc without special configurations dedicated, with many process in background and the crashes was really really rare.... Traktor is'nt perfect, but, for example when was released the 3.3.0 version most people talk very good about the 3.2.2 version and how rocks.... and the 3.3.1 has fixed most of the best problems. And I've never thought to come back to 2.x versions or that 2.x is better than 3.x.

    In my opinion Traktor have a chain of problems that's in the end one problem.
    Traktor have many functions that request many buttons-knobs, so don't have a dedicated controller....
    For example is difficult to find a controller where you can assign four buttons and four knobs to control only the effects, or six buttons for control a bit the loop area.
    Dj at gig request easy functions to recall easy, or never will use these functions. Vestax has made a controller that try to control Traktor, but you can see that next version (VCI-300) will support directly another easier software (ITCH)..... It's really optimistic think that the controllers producers will do something that can support totally Traktor.
    What we have watched at NAMM 2008 that the trend is a controller with its software ready to play, nothing different. The solutions all-in-one are the future. It's a logistic reason too. So Native-Instruments have to decide if want stay out this trend or hope that some controllers producers will do something quite good for Traktor, or make an agreement like Serato has made with Numark and Vestax about ITCH, or do the real big step and build a controller for four decks that support completely the many functions that Traktor have. Because I can't spend much money to buy a controller like the Numark NS7, don't use ITCH and pass many days to find the right configuration for use it with Traktor.....
    Or simply come in discoteque with an Audio8 DJ and a laptop using Traktor Scratch.... but Native-Instruments have to say wich future Traktor Dj Studio can have.
    I say this because we have to know that discoteques needs consolle where all djs can play without issues. Now if you have vinyls or cds you are quite sure to play without problems. If the consolle have cd player that support mp3 is better. If you use a mixing software you have to add something to the standard consolle.... like Traktor Scratch or something compact all-in-one to place somewhere without issues.....
    I'm a dreamer, but I imagine something similar a laptop that when you open you have the screen with the mixing software opened and not the pc keyboard but the dj controller....
    For this reason I consider Numark iDJ2 the most innovative product about digital djing in last years. No compromises, only a dj consolle ready to start.
    Sorry for long post and for my english not so perfect.
  9. DJ_AS

    DJ_AS NI Product Owner

    Cybermix: I get what you are trying to say - I have also been following Serato's ITCH with interest (and even Numark's iDJ2, as you mention). The idea of a simple, plug and play solution is very appealing to me.

    One of software's greatest strengths though is that potential customisation and adjustment to a particular user's requirements are limitless. You can theoretically choose any MIDI controller for use with Traktor, depending on what you want to do with the software. I say theoretically because as with any open system there may be problems of configuration and compatibility between certain hardware and software combinations. This can be a big problem for some users.

    Serato may have solved the problem of balancing customisation, compatibility and easy of use with ITCH - the software will work straight off with a variety of specific controllers. A DJ can pick that which suits their own style and know with certainty it will work seamlessly with the software. Incorporation of an audio interface into the controllers is another nice touch.

    (I may be sounding like an ITCH fanboy, but rest assured, I do understand that all we have currently is marketing material from them. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating... Conceptually, I like the direction they have taken.)

    I will be very interested to see what happens with Traktor 4.1* and how NI will respond to consumer demands and the progress of competitors.

    *based on previous experience T4.0 will be so bug-ridden as to be virtually unusable.... ;)
  10. npherno

    npherno New Member

    External Controllers


    Dont be so cynical! I havent been a Traktor owner that long, but the the primary reason that I bought it was because NI owned the software and hardware, end to end. The products should be the best integrated on the market.

    Although I DJ with Vinyl, I can definitely see a time where I'd just bring an Audio8 and a MIDI controller and patch into the Club mixer, just because running that way is less of a pain to set up if someone is DJ'ing before you and you have to set up while the other DJ is playing.
  11. npherno

    npherno New Member

    Argh, I need some more coffee. I also think NI will come out with a competitor to ITCH and have a 4 deck controller, with all the knobs to control Traktor functions.
  12. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    STOP thinking about your software's relationship to you: in terms of it's relationship to other software in the context of the commercial areana -- other wise your tool will only be that. A comparison for you to make between your investment and your other possible investments.

    Or try this ! go out and buy every single product that does the same exact thing:p and when you have spent five thousand dollars on competing products and their proprietary components you will say to your self "I wish traktor did what all this does: and also -- and what I wish it could do, knowing -- what I know NOW"(after you have done all this)

    What traktor could do if it was just a little more innovative and free of the limitations of comparison. = .Just think about that.

    the basetball hoop is not ten feet high. How high can you jump . Ever wondered what it would be like ... to fly

  13. DJ_AS

    DJ_AS NI Product Owner

    I'm not being cynical, I'm just saying there is another way of looking at this whole 'digital DJing' thing and that there are strengths and weaknesses to each approach.

    I think the release of the Audio 8 and the Vestax VCI-100 has really helped things with regards to custom designed hardware.

    I wonder how much the Serato Itch Vestax VCI-300 will cost - will it be more competitive than the joint cost of an Audio 8 and VCI-100?

    I know of a few DJs who were impressed by what I could do on Traktor, but were put off by the idea of purchasing all the appropriate gear, configuring the MIDI controller and the Traktor interface to their requirements etc etc. As one of them said "FFS, I just want to plug something in and play some tunes"!

    Signaturex: sometimes I really wonder what planet you are on. I find it hard following all your bizarre metaphors!
  14. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    disclosure: when i write...I speak the word "YOU" " "YOUR" etc. in terms of the example by which I am stating the given expression to a reader in terms of myself. By saying you I mean YOU FOR EXAMPLE and in saying I mean you as it sounds but in my experience and generally i do not mean to direct a statment at a person in specific by doing so.


    Funney enough -- "im not on a planet .. im on the internet trying to get my software functioning with the abilities that are up to my spec and my levels of mixing." My metaphors are simple ways to re-word what I am trying to get across to some people about the nature of the situation.

    Every-one continually speaks of this interface in its relationship to other software and there is only that .. what it can and can't do in comparison to the other un-evolved platforms. Traktor is the original DVS system. Most other systems are based on the Idea of traktor and in their design they have found some better ways to implement the things that traktor does. But if NI and the designers of this software have to answer to that variable and only that. And users only consider their equipment and their use of it in comparison to what it can do as opposed to the systems that are basically mimicing it? and ironically this is the whole limited paradigm of the DJ world.?

    Then there is no use in changing it. or improving it. And there is no use for you to be doing what you are doing with music. Except making money and playing other people's songs. As a simple DJ that is all we are really doing.

    Traktor already contains the most varied and programmable approach to the work. Most users have not scratched the surface of what this software is capable of and they are looking across to the competitors saying but why but why. And sadly this causes the designers to reconsider thinking progressively about their babey.

    The planet I am on is EARTH and things are changing. Progressive ideas are the way of the future.(and consequently:( the only way) If you do read my posts I think that you will understand quite well that I mean for the system to make a quantum leap.. and there are many others like me.

    Sometimes i feel Like I am on viable 'crusade'(for lack of a better word) to conjure the great grail of modern mixologey. boysteve subjectively analyzed and sumed me as the timothey leary of digital djing. But i didn't feel his comment was necessarily aimed at the more posative infaction of such a statment. And I wish he'd pull his head out and share his more enlightening ideas about the software instead of just how Phucked up it is. I know that our little bologne confrontation here in this thread has evidently(by his specification) lead to his "permanent" dismissal of the forum but if He has been here for five years and really has the posative progression of the software in his heart--he is STILL here lurking -- and making things happen. albiet by some twisted mechanism of his multiple internet personalities. NUff said but a little more I really like his wit and what he has to say. i just don't like how he pisses off directly in my face. such actions are a little bit much for me to accept even on a virtual level.

    Traktor can be a creative tool for making ACTUAL MUSIC . Music is something that you can create yourself and have the complete discretion of control over ...... think about it. The other software platforms are shooting for the simple and stable player. One that you can get your head around and run with one hand while the other is holding a 12 ounce and stroking the ego. Traktor doesn't have to succeed at that cause it already does X10 and most people are simply just not paying attention to the variables or being patient.

    My metaphors and dream talk and those like them are maybe the only way to healthfulley enlighten those that might not think outside their BOX/club/two decks/midi controller whatever. I guess ive been djing for too long:p Im an old man with too many expectations. sorrey.. but sometimes Im just expecting this thing to really grow up. The mixing of beats with a turntable has gone further in my mind than it is currently possible in reality. It is my instrument, and i want it to act like one.
  15. arcurback

    arcurback Forum Member

    @ friedman

    Im not sure how far along you are with Mixed in Key, but you should really check out Mixshare - Rapid Evolution.

    Similar software to Mixed in Key, but through the benchmark tests, it was about 65-70% accurate and i believe Mixed in Key was about 50-60%.

    Also Rapid Evolution already has the ability to import your Traktor collection file.

    And you can write all your key info into the title of the tracks. im not sure what MIxed in Key is like, but my experiences with Rapid Evolution has been awesome and its FREE!

    thought id share.
  16. rocdollar

    rocdollar NI Product Owner

    In my experience MiK is more accurate than RE2 (esp. the latest version that detects major keys better and offers up to 2 possible key (or Easymix) values e.g 6A,7A)

    RE2 has the advantage of live key detection though and also gives a readout relative to this live input in cents.

    I'd say the most empowering situation is to be able to compare results from both programs. If they are the same you know there is a high chance it will be correct. If there is discrepancy, then a quick check with the RE2 MIDI keyboard and your ears can usually resolve it.
  17. jkcomputers

    jkcomputers New Member

    So just checking in... Its a crime to hit the sync button?
    I must say I have tried lots and lots of other software, but I still love Traktor...
    - Option of Side by Side Wave Form...
    - Looking into the freezing... I have the Numark total control and DJIO, Freezes infrequently, but still a problem in my books...
    - Better Effects (Beat Mash)
    - Adding Sampler
    - Adding Quick effects like a Siren, horn etc...
    Over all I do like the program... The total control and DJIO keep my rig nice and small, but I need a little more reliablity...
  18. misterharrison

    misterharrison NI Product Owner

    A bit surprised to hear about freezes/crashes using T3 on Leopard. I must be lucky or they must be unlucky.

    I run Traktor 3.3.2 on Leopard 10.5.2 with a Vestax VCM-100 and it has never crashed once. Not once. And I love the EQs, especially the 4-band A&H emulation - vastly superior to T2's EQs which had no finesse at all. And for what it's worth, I get the same pitch accuracy and control using the VCM-100's lovely long pitch faders set to "Deck Tempo Fine" at +/-4.7% as I did/do on Technics turntables.

    Context: I mixed vinyl from 1992 to 2005, always on Technics 1200/1210s, on a range of mixers culminating in the A&H Xone62. Oh, and I play house/electro/disco/soul/funk/balearic without scratching or fx, both of which which I find irritating. :D
  19. Dj Ericmaster

    Dj Ericmaster NI Product Owner

    Hello to everyone, I'm new to this forums and this was the first topic that called my attention since I've been using traktor for almost 2 years now and wanted to see what other djs think about it. I've made a quick read since there are so long posts but I get the general idea of what is going on...

    I have to say that besides djing I also study computer science/engineering and math and I can see the difficulties on developing dj software... it is not easy and need constant development. The problem is that improvements comes with cost and I suppose that the designers/developers of the traktor concept must be taking difficult decisions on adding some features or taking out some other features for the next version.

    There is a wide variety of users, from scratch djs to pop music djs or any other kind of dj. When you develop software you try to satisfy most of the users but there is no way to satisfy all. One user might one something but some other user might not want it with the package. It is really difficult to satisfy all the requirements.

    However I find Traktor to be the most modular and customizable software being capable to be user friendly enough at the same time. From my point of view of developer traktor is a really good dj software, it is customazible and relatively easy to use with some minor mistakes providing backward compatibility (e.g. the collection management) which would satisfy the needs for most of the users (being them begginers or pros).

    However, from my point of view of user, it still needs to be more flexible in the sense that it should be capable to be adequated to the dj needs and not the contrary as I feel that I have to be adequate my needs to the software since it cannot adequate to all my needs, that is for example if want to have the panel on some other place I can't or if I want to use a previous removed feature I can't, so I have to find some other ways to do what I used to do in the previous version with the new version or get used to have the things in the place they are and the way they work.

    I think it is something that we have to deal permanently when we work with any package software, we can take for example the change from ms office xp to ms office 2007 (for those who were already used to the xp version). But, as software gets mature there will be less things to change from version to version and most of the needs of most of the users will get satisfied eventually. Completeness and flexibility come with the price of a major software design complexity and if it is more complex it tends to be less stable so it is a hard work to find the equilibrium between stability and flexibility. It has to be stable if we want to use it for a live set, so we can expect it to be less flexible.

    Well, that's what I think. So, my advice is: be patient while the software gets an adequate level of maturity and keep posting your requests for the new versions. I'm sure NI will implement them, if not, just change to the software package that implements the feature you want.

    Remember, there are always trial versions for most of the dj software so you can try some and stay with the one you feel more confortable. For me, Traktor satisfy most of my needs.
  20. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

    What a great read this thread was (for the most part)
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