A new mode for switches please

Discussion in 'Feature Suggestions' started by Michael O'Hagan, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. Michael O'Hagan

    Michael O'Hagan NI Product Owner

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    Seriously dude...

    That's pretty childish and kinda a messed up troll thing to say.

    How about you grow up and stay out of my threads/requests.

    So here you go, one last time for the record...

    Despite the objections of the great and mighty ColB, I Michael O'Hagan, hereby declare publicly that I am ok with the use of switches in reaktor based instruments.

    I state publicly that we all have to simply work within the limits of the technology that is available to us, managing CPU resources as needed using whatever technique we find useful.

    Eliminating powerful and useful features to avoid switches that cause init/re-init events is either a lazy approach to design and development.

    I still hope NI gives me this feature.
     
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  2. colB

    colB NI Product Owner

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    it's a big IF!
     
  3. Michael O'Hagan

    Michael O'Hagan NI Product Owner

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    How so?
     
  4. colB

    colB NI Product Owner

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    clearly so :)

    your statement is completely correct of course:
    "If refusing to use switches means building a lesser overall instrument, then that is a poor choice to make..."
    If the premise was correct, then the conclusion would be absolutely true, but only if the premise was correct, which is what we've been debating. So its a somewhat circular argument... "If I'm right, then I'm right".
     
  5. Michael O'Hagan

    Michael O'Hagan NI Product Owner

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    It's simply a matter of personal prioritization, which is more important to you, not having switches that cause init/re-init, or having a greater feature set.

    I side on a greater feature set at the cost of having to init proof my stuff, it makes for better more powerful and more interesting instruments.

    Switches and init events have never crippled my reaktor experience, they are simply not a deal breaker.
     
  6. ANDREW221231

    ANDREW221231 NI Product Owner

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    dunno where your thoughtful comment went but i went to my email and read it anyway... and i didn't mean to come off like i was at any high level myself and was more expression of being willfully and defiantly pretty terrible myself especially with bad habits, but examples using stuff i've figured out not to do to make it. would have used stuff i suck at now but im still ignorant of their mere existence

    i don't think you need to worry about not achieving a high level, every time i see you say something it sounds intelligent, careful and measured and i think if i had to say if i approved of you or not, i'd say easily since that time you posted that picture of a phase rattle oscillator because something me and colin said about that was giving you an idea. it reminded me of something i'd do. and the little ways your idea can be off unexpectedly are sometimes the best parts
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  7. ANDREW221231

    ANDREW221231 NI Product Owner

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    can you really say that though, given the way its clearly something i've seen you be unable to let go more times than my brain will let me remember. dude is probably frustrated trying to work on stuff already without people hounding him that they see it different, and finally when he explicitly says he has had enough and would you please just leave my thread now im done, you couldn't help getting last one snide dig, not even a one liner, but like full couple sentences

    oh my god that's shameful behavior, i knew i'd seen it elsewhere but never in a way that seemed like an opportunity to call out of the kind of thing i consider completely unacceptable.

    you wanna tell me now how its not about ego when you couldn't just think better and leave after you already know you've upset someone?

    im almost ashamed of that half chummy reply i wrote not having seen that diva exit
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
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  8. ANDREW221231

    ANDREW221231 NI Product Owner

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    sucks to think i might miss out on some of your keen insights after saying this, how clever it is to understand something less clearly through a personality conflict, like that time you worked out aliasing couldn't possibly be anything like a sideband if alan thinks it might be ,like how actually antialiasing is suddenly as difficult as fully implementing the idea in a commercial offering with several features you'd never want and ignoring some potential shortcuts

    not really much of a circular concept if its his thread and you won't leave, unless someone maybe started showing that kind of attention to whether lots of stuff you were doing was fundamentally not okay somehow, would that logic stuff you just used work to say why your 'debate me" circle would be different from some kind of lion king, circle of life circle,? or is it mainly good as a really dorky way to say "i didn't even just say anything at all just wanted to milk not leaving you alone for another moment"

    really im just glad i learned to not take your negging seriously since wayyy back when you you tried to suggest what i said were transients from filtering a fourier tranform were something anyone could get with simple thresholding and didn't necessarily suggest anything fundamental about the signal i'd discovered, so for that i appreciate the insight that needing others to think anything at all in relation to me was probably a dead end.. but the poor OP with a question about signal analysis as information seemed to believe you guys that it was too difficult to even begin to attempt and even turned down the idea of trying for it to be possible, even though i was like "i think it can be done" but no one wants to hear the guy with too much optimism especially if the two guys who seem to be the authorities dont seem to want to acknowledge he's even talking lol. i've taken enough good hacks at anything he could have meant by that from enough angles im getting bored of thinking up new ways to try and almost all of them have done the job at some level. but how many people have you talked out of trying good ideas? that kid with attitude issues we'd been chewing out was starting to enjoy himself but i haven't seen him back since you felt that it was necessary to go out of your way to say "oh this is what you meant sorry i was confused, this actually sucks" instead of letting him dream a little or be thoughtful in your criticism....must have been that we were speculating a little loosely on your watch, and since you don't really seem keen to pull this kind of crap with me, obviously he was your only other choice.

    im just embarrassed i didn't think to do this when you ran off that kid, because my reaction to seeing you obviously finding whatever we were doing distasteful was to look at myself and be like what the hell is wrong with me, and grapple with myself instead of worry with that ugliness. well it might have made you nervous if you'd known what that could mean, because a person who can be honest with themselves enough can start to use it on other people too, and the couple times that's happened people have acted really different after. until today, when i saw that i still wanted to believe you were that straight shooter that i'd been glad to make absolutely clear about . hopefully this was a misunderstanding of me being foolishly mistaken and i'll have to settle for feeling dumb, and this being the only way you'd get to hear some of what i really think. im not optimistic but I'd really like that better, but either way, have fun reading, i mean practically all of it either way
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  9. Paule

    Paule NI Product Owner

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    Thank very much Colin. That's wonderful.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
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  10. colB

    colB NI Product Owner

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    As I pointed out, the emotional response is with the use of primary switches. If Primary switches are used in a context where they don't interrupt normal operation, then they are totally fine.
    Once a debate has started, it doesn't belong to one or other party - otherwise fair debate would be completely impossible. Any time there was a disagreement, the thread starter would 'win' by demanding that anyone who they don't agree with must leave.
    These things start because of a difference of opinion. sometimes they go a bit wrong. Just to make it clear, if its about ego, then it is only to the extent that I believe that I am right, and Michael believes he's right, and neither of us want to back down because we both feel strongly about the topic. I can't see anything wrong with that.
    I think where it goes wrong is when the logic of the argument starts to fall apart. I admit that I am often guilty of making 'smartarse' comments when I'm arguing against strawmen, or self referential logic - as in this case. It's a defence mechanism, because I find that extremely frustrating, and its unusual in a technical forum like this. Logic should be strong here, and when the logic starts to fall apart, and yet is repeated, I find it very difficult not to respond in a negative way. How else can you respond in that situation? There is faulty logic - you point out the faulty logic, and the response is to repeat the same logic, or the same logic dressed up in a straw suit...

    Michael is not a beginner, He created some brilliant synths, and is obviously an accomplished builder, so IMO it should be possible to criticise or argue with points of contention in this sort of context.

    EDIT:
    I often get things wrong, and come over as pompous, and make a fool of myself. I've learned to accept that :)
    When I was younger I often wasted a LOT of time getting enthusiastic about ideas that went against my existing knowledge.
    Now if something doesn't fit my existing knowledge, I will challenge it hard, and if it's sticks, I know it's good. If my existing knowledge is found wanting (it often is) then I look like an idiot, and that's ok!
    I don't think that's what's happening in this thread though (apart from the pompous bit - there's always a bit of that), just in some of the other examples you have referenced.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
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  11. Paule

    Paule NI Product Owner

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  12. KoaN

    KoaN NI Product Owner

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    Nice bits of honesty there colB.
    You know we all have things that trigger us,for you a lack of logic,sense seems to be one of them.
    It's funny Andrew mentioned that thread with that kid "the screaming filter kid" and thought you were maybe responsible for him disappearing...well my last message in there (which i then edited,modified) was pretty direct and harsh and i feel he then decided to leave.
    Something triggered me in that thread,i felt the kid was pretending "to himself and others" that he knew a lot more than he actually knew and was throwing technical terms around in a very loose way...it got me and i felt i had to call him out...then i thought i went maybe a bit hard "not sure how many saw my original comment before i changed it" and that maybe he didn't deserve that reaction.
    So yah..we all have things that feel threatening to us and we kind of fight for survival...i don't think there are any real dangers just sharing words and ideas specially in a place like this but we are humans..with fears,hopes for a better world and we think we know "a little" on how to improve it...we might be wrong "a lot" about this one...hehe.
     
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  13. ANDREW221231

    ANDREW221231 NI Product Owner

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    oh yeah i find him pretty intolerable too and probably would have insulted him, maybe not with that colB flair which did seem just meaner than i'd ever be inclined to unprovoked

    but yeah, that he ran him off the forum is not a definite calll, and i'd be fully willing to say that was just helped my mean framing in the moment. i think im pretty damn easy to argue with cause i don't hold on to %# except principle. but i can't let it go either. sucks but it also simplifies things
     
  14. Michael O'Hagan

    Michael O'Hagan NI Product Owner

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    The debate and disagreement part doesn't bother me, the line about switches killing puppies just seems a bit too much like trolling to take you seriously, hence my desire to end this discussion with you as I felt you were wating time and acting like a troll.

    So here it all is, somewhat summed up or shortened.

    Facts...

    1. Yes switches cause init events

    2. Yes, init events can cause problems in some structures

    Opinions that differ...

    1. (ColB) Switches should be avoided at all times because of these issues, they are unacceptable to be used in any situation.

    1. (Me) You should use switches to allocate cpu needs throughout your structure where needed, but only when needed for cpu allocation. Then make sure you init proof your entire structure so that they don't cause any errors in your instrument.


    2. (ColB) We should avoid using switches because they may cause issues with others instruments because they may have not init proofed their structure.

    2. (Me) Whether or not someone else has init proofed their structure or not is simply not my responsibility or concern, I do not control other peoples work.

    3. (ColB) It is all of our responsibilities as builders to minimize potential errors caused by our designs when it comes to overall reaktor compatibility, our work should not cause errors in other peoples work, so we should all not use switches.

    3. (Me) Whether or not my use of switches is capable of causing errors in someone else's project is not my primary concern or main responsibility.
    Making the most feature rich enjoyable to use instrument that I can while safeguarding my own work against init errors and minimizing wasted cpu is my primary responsibility.

    2 facts, and 3 layers of differing opinions.

    My only real complaint here is that you seem to be un-able to live with the differing opinions and you got kinda rude and trolling with the killing puppies remark.

    Init errors are not a big deal to me, they have never broken one of my projects, if they completely break someone else's project I see that as an error in their work, not mine, you think that an init event caused by my work causing an error in theirs is my fault, I don't agree and I never will.

    If the init event caused by a switch in my instrument exposes errors in the work of others, it is just that, it has exposed the error's in their work, not created them.
     
  15. ANDREW221231

    ANDREW221231 NI Product Owner

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    784
    EDIT:


    i keep losing my questions and spot which really sucks they were stacking up,, sorry... im just really becoming really interested in this whole dynamic between here, and the two of you


    in sorry... i'm just.. getting so confused. this is our second time getting into it michael's over switches. i know i don't have to ask that now. lol

    this is just so ridiculous, like how often do you guy talk about it? every day? do you joke about the switches?, like how big is this whole thing,,,

    like.... are there switch raids?

    how long has the switch debate gone on??

    and could koan be considered a steady part of this, or am i putting things together

    if you wouldn't mind i'd love a general history of this phenomenon
    is this a sore time or spot to be bringing up? is it stale mate? or am i blowing this thing out of proportion. now im starting to get interested
     
  16. Michael O'Hagan

    Michael O'Hagan NI Product Owner

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    :):p:rolleyes:.
    okay, here we go...

    I made a feature request about wanting switches to have a "Master" mode where it would de-activate entire macro's instead of just single wire connections, for easier use in building larger structures.

    ColB chimed in with his opinion about switches being bad and how no one should ever use them, I told him I didn't agree and that I found switches perfectly useful.

    Then 4 pages worth of re-iterating opinions took place and now we're here.

    That's basically it.
     
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  17. ANDREW221231

    ANDREW221231 NI Product Owner

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    this was recently? but you still like get along still sometimes right? its not just always switches?
     
  18. Michael O'Hagan

    Michael O'Hagan NI Product Owner

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    It's been going on for the last week, it's not really that big of a deal, but I still want my feature request and felt that I needed to drive that point home just in case the developers ever look at this thread.
     
  19. ANDREW221231

    ANDREW221231 NI Product Owner

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    sure sure
    like i don't see what the big deal is, was there something you could have said but didn't want to say "colin, maybe there are better solutions, or maybe switches have problems" or something you couldnt say because you didn't believe it, like didn't accept the reality

    or like he needed you admit your solution was inferior? or that you needed to just use switches?

    sorry if you don't want to keep answering you are not required to

    im just trying to like figure out, was there one single issue that you just both couldn't concede

    i guess he maybe frames it in a jokey mike can take hold his own as a programmer and its laughs and debate, id have to check the message

    if you're not trying to participate in that kind of debate or have that interaction at all and hes forcing it to happen, then thats bullying
     
  20. Michael O'Hagan

    Michael O'Hagan NI Product Owner

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    I wouldn't call this situation bullying by any means, it's more like mutual stubbornness on differing ideas.