a way too expensive...

Discussion in 'KONTROL F1' started by Sparksta, Mar 14, 2012.

  1. Sparksta

    Sparksta NI Product Owner

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    Hey,

    great controller! great update!

    BUT

    its not like the x1 where 1 controller is enough for 2 decks without pressing shift.

    You will need 2 f1 to control 2 remix decks without loosing track.

    Thats 500€!

    i think maschine is the better way to go...

    just my 2 cents:)
     
  2. dannybyrne29

    dannybyrne29 NI Product Owner

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    2,342
    Maybe your right the price does seem a bit steep.... i'll wait for the deals at xmas...!
     
  3. scep

    scep NI Product Owner

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    It seriously doubt that most Djs will really make use of it.
    I see where they are going with elevating digital Djing etc. but its a little bit like Ableton:
    Who takes the time to dissect a ton of Tracks to play them like this? I know there are people out there who will like it but as much as these sample functions in Traktor 2.5 Update it's for a specific crowd.
    I would for example like to know what percentage of Djs who have TSP2 REALLY use their sample decks. I almost never hear it anywhere apart from some rare name dropping
    So, as it might attract certain Djs, I agree, and Im sure its a great innovation but its not gonna be as universally applicable as the X1 or S2.

    And if you watch the Promo video for F1...
    what I got from it?
    Shiftee is a great turntablist and fun to watch.
    But I kinda knew that already...

    ;)
     
  4. H3PO4

    H3PO4 NI Product Owner

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    I'm not sure how many people are actually using the sample decks, but I think that having a dedicated controller and the ability to hold 4 times as many samples is going to be a game changer. Right now you have to either map a separate midi controller (time-consuming and difficult for many) or settle for using a mouse (very limiting) to control them. This thing is going to seamlessly put a lot of what I like about Maschine into Traktor. I wish it was cheaper, but I know I'm not going to be able to resist :D
     
  5. dannybyrne29

    dannybyrne29 NI Product Owner

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    2,342
  6. Sparksta

    Sparksta NI Product Owner

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    228
    I like the sample decks...

    i like the remix decks...

    but they should sell the f1 without software and charge 150€ - 170€
     
  7. H3PO4

    H3PO4 NI Product Owner

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    You make a very good point, Sparksta. Traktor Pro 2 is $229...only $50 less than the F1 with Traktor Pro 2.5. It does seem that there should be a hardware-only version for those of us who have already spent a good chunk of money on the software.
     
  8. Eqube

    Eqube New Member

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    3
    traktor 2.5 and Maschine

    Will i be able to lanuch samples with MASCHINE on traktor 2.5? Instead of F1

    Thx
     
  9. Carl Hern

    Carl Hern Forum Member

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    116
    Like everything else in the world of music tech, this is just another tool to your disposal. A great new tool to play with but a tool nonetheless.
    It's up to you to use it or not.
    Workflows differ from Dj to Dj, so use whatever works for you.
    If you like using samples and one shots in your sets, great, if not, well, you don't have to use it.
    To each its own.
    Don't be a hater, be a creator! Be an artist!
    Use the tools you feel comfortable with.
    If the tool fits you style, workflow and imagination great! But if it doesn't, nobody is forcing to buy new hardware, or upgrade to new software.
    Native Instruments job is to provide the tools to keep pushing the art form forward. If you can still push the art form with tools available to you right now, by all means keep on rocking!
    As far as I am concern, this new controller will fit right at home in my personal workflow.
    I always wanted to be able to control Maschine with timecode. Even though is not quite there yet, this controller is almost like a little Maschine custom made for Djs, and that is great news for Dj/Producers like myself.
    I can't wait to get mine!
    ---
    PS: By the way, this is 10 times better than the Bridge! ( ...and I do own Serato SL and Ableton, which I also use in a regular basis ).
     
  10. Sparksta

    Sparksta NI Product Owner

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    228
    Hey Carl,

    no one is here to hate!

    at least not me.

    Im pretty excited about the update...

    But ill def use my Maschine for the Remix Decks (if possible)

    Im just questioning the Software / Hardware bundle...

    I own TSP 2 so i wont spend money on software again!

    So it looks like NI doesnt want to attract exsisting Traktor users to the F1.

    Not to mention that i think the price for a blinking piece of plastik should not be that high!

    Man... 250€ , thats a Ps vita or ps3 or decent graphic card....

    Too bad im not playing games as often as i DJ ;)
     
  11. Carl Hern

    Carl Hern Forum Member

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    116
    Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow!

    Did you just said "...a blinking piece of plastik..." ( by the way is spelled plastic )!

    Le me get this straight, you think that a quantum leap on dj performance, as the new Traktor 2.5 and the Kontrol F1 clearly are, for you is only a piece of blinking PLASTIK!

    Do you have any idea the amount of time it takes to research and develop this piece of PLASTIK? Do you even comprehend the crazy amount of Technology that is being infuse into that piece of PLASTIK?

    I don't know about you, but Dj wise and Technology wise, the Kontrol F1 is more than a piece of blinking PLASTIK! It's a new paradigm in Dj performance! It's a new frontier in the evolution of the Art of Djing! It's, as Eddie Izzard will say: " It's The Dog's Bollocks! "

    Maybe you should try to plug your PS Vita, or your PS3 into Traktor 2.5 ( when it comes out ) to see if you get the same kind of functionality you will get with the Kontrol F1...

    By the way, the F1 is made out really good PLASTIK! ( ...so i heard... )

    PS: I apologized beforehand for the ranting... I can feel Karlos Santos breathing down my neck already...

    :D:D
     
  12. Sparksta

    Sparksta NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    228
    Its ok with me...

    you are just defending The F1 and how you think it changes game.

    But you dont have to tell me how great NI is.

    I own Traktor and Maschine and i love them.

    and sorry for the PLASTIK spelling(i am german Kraut) ;) This seemed to be very bad for your eyes.

    I did not want to hurt you.

    Sure 2.5 is a game changer but not the F1.

    Maschine and Traktor 2 where game changers as are the remix decks.

    But if they are midi mapable there will be a lot of alternatives in near future.

    And as i said 150€ for Midi controler without interface is OK

    But not 250€ with software i already payed for...

    And considering you want to play 2 remix Decks you want to have 2 f1 and pay twice for software again.

    I love this whole idea and so on But ill use my Maschine for the game chaneging rmx decks.

    If you dont own one and you dont have traktor already and one rmx deck is fine for you
    the F1 is the perfect deal!

    And i agree that compairing sony and ni is not quite a good one.
    But ill bet sony does research too ;)

    So my basic point is:

    Great piece of kit... But the deal is not good enough for ME!

    Its for YOU and that is fine.
     
  13. gNNY

    gNNY NI Product Owner

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    79
    To a certain extend I have to agree with Sparksta. If I'd buy the F1 I'd get my third full version of TP2. Last Christmas I bought the Audio 6 which NI gratiously upgraded to a Pro version of Traktor. When the S2 deal came along, I bought that as well although it came with a SW I didn't need. Now for the F1 it's the same again. I would have preferredif it had cost as much as the X1 and not ship a full version of Traktor.

    does the inclusion of the Pro version mean that there won't be a LE version of 2.5? Because that would somewhat explain NIs decision on this...
     
  14. Carl Hern

    Carl Hern Forum Member

    Messages:
    116
    Its ok with me...

    you are just defending The F1 and how you think it changes game.
    I don't "think"... It does changes the game, based on the level of Hardware and Software integration. Very few controllers on the market has this level of software integration. Sure, you can buy a third party controller, but it is not going to have the same level of software integration that the F1 has. The F1 was specifically designed for new remix decks! The level of integration is what you are paying for. A third party controller is not gonna give you the same performance experience as the F1, period.

    But you dont have to tell me how great NI is.
    No, I don't have to tell you how great NI is, we all know how great NI is! But you seem to forget that innovation, quality, great user experience and tightly integrated hardware and software solutions required great amounts of research and development which, by the way, is not cheap.

    I own Traktor and Maschine and i love them.
    So do I... And I also love my Kontrol X1s, and my S4, and Komplete, and Serato SL, and my Rane and Piooneer mixers, and my Otus, and my Trigger Fingers, and my Oxigen 8, and my iPad and my iPhone, etc... Which by the way they all happen to be tools I feel comfortable with.

    and sorry for the PLASTIK spelling(i am german Kraut) This seemed to be very bad for your eyes.
    Es tut nicht weh meine Augen, aber es tut weh Ihre Rechtschreibung.

    I did not want to hurt you.
    You are far from doing that my friend.

    Sure 2.5 is a game changer but not the F1.
    As far I am concern the main feature on Traktor 2.5 is the Remix Decks. The controller is what makes the Remix Decks such a pleasure to use. Once again the software and hardware integration is what makes the experience great. To state that software by itself is great without the hardware is just senseless. Would you say the same thing about using Maschine without the controller... I would doubt that.

    Maschine and Traktor 2 where game changers as are the remix decks.
    Well, what makes the remix decks so great is the whole package! Hardware and software!

    But if they are midi mapable there will be a lot of alternatives in near future.
    Almost 90% of features on Traktor are MIDI mappable. Choice is not an issue here. But I can tell you that NI already put great amounts of time and money trying to figure out what is the most efficient way to map and implement the new features on Traktor 2.5. But if you want to give them a run for their money, go ahead, knock yourself out.

    And as i said 150€ for Midi controler without interface is OK
    $150 for a none integrated solution versus $250 for a highly integrated hardware solution that is tailor made to my software features... huuum... I will take the $250 solution any time any day!

    But not 250€ with software i already payed for...
    You are not paying for the software! The upgrade is free for owners of Traktor 2!

    And considering you want to play 2 remix Decks you want to have 2 f1 and pay twice for software again.
    You are paying for the hardware only, and you are getting 4GB of free content ( :) ha! I am starting to sound like car dealer Sale-man! ).

    I love this whole idea and so on But ill use my Maschine for the game chaneging rmx decks.
    Like I said before, if you are happy with the tools you have, by all means, keep on rocking.

    If you dont own one and you dont have traktor already and one rmx deck is fine for you
    the F1 is the perfect deal!

    And i agree that compairing sony and ni is not quite a good one.
    But ill bet sony does research too
    Yes, Sony does research and development. That's why you pay close to $300 for a PSP Vita and close to $250 for PS3.

    So my basic point is:

    Great piece of kit... But the deal is not good enough for ME!
    Like I said before, if you are happy with the tools you have, by all means, keep on rocking.


    Its for YOU and that is fine.
    It's more than fine for me. I already own a PSP Vita and PS3!

    :D
     
  15. dannybyrne29

    dannybyrne29 NI Product Owner

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    2,342
    he he... you guys crack me up...!

    that post must have taken you ages...lol
     
  16. gNNY

    gNNY NI Product Owner

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    if I may step in here: I don't think it's a matter of disrespect for developing achievements but rather a question of perspective.

    The X1 comes with Traktor LE and an upgrade to Pro is roughly 60 EUR. So basically, you can say you pay extra for an F1 because normally it would be priced as an X1 but it has the Pro version which is where the premium price is coming from.

    If you argue that one only pays for the hardware and not the software it would be kind of strange that NI is selling the software standalone for 200 EUR while giving it away for free someplace else.

    Personally, I like to think that the premium price comes from the fact that the Pro version of Traktor is bundled with the hardware. As mentioned above, that makes it less attractive to me because I already own 2 copies of Traktor Pro (of which I only need one!). And I would have expected (and liked) an X1 price point along with an LE bundle. But I can understand that NI has opt against this to promote the new features in version 2.5.
     
  17. xbubbax

    xbubbax New Member

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    17
    its an awesome looking controller, and if your like me and use ableton....this might be for you. its a great idea as long as your not LIMITED to how long the samples can be. 40 sec is not long enough.

    350$ = way too expensive! of course shiftee can afford these...his TT are gold! *chuckle*

    NI I hope you reconsider this price. Also im curious if they will integrate this layout into maschine as serato did with ableton to create the bridge :)

    good idea....cant wait to see what else this can do, and what are the limitations.
     
  18. Carl Hern

    Carl Hern Forum Member

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    116
    Kontrol X1 Bundle with Traktor LE ($199.99) + Traktor Pro Upgrade ($60) = $260
    Kontrol F1 Bundle with Traktor Pro ($270) + No need to upgrade ($0) = $270

    $270 - $260 = $10! For the love of God, for crying out loud we are being rob blind by NI! Somebody call the cops!

    :D:D:D

    I see what most of you are coming from, but I personally believe that comparing the F1 to the X1 is completely unfair. They are two different kind of controllers. I bet that manufacturing cost for the F1 ( color LEDs, faders, etc ) are way higher than the manufacturing cost for the X1. The bundle software is just a way for NI to promote the product to new potential customer that otherwise will not be interested on jumping on the Traktor bandwagon.
    The reason why the upgrade is free for owners of Traktor 2 is because it will be compensated by the sale of the new hardware.
    This is the same marketing scheme that companies like Apple play in other for them to sell hardware. Apple will upgrade their OS in with a ton of new features. The new features requires you to upgrade to a new machine in other for you to smoothly run the software.
    In the same tangent NI is offering a new set of features that can only be enjoy or implemented %100 by buying the hardware.

    :cool::cool:
     
  19. Evolvethemovement

    Evolvethemovement Forum Member

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    29
    As a touring artist, and someone in the game to change the game. I like the idea of the F1.

    I would want to know answers to some very real questions.

    If you load up all the remix decks to max, and have 2 units running, is it going to glitch my sound without upgrading the rig.

    I run a mid year 2010 macbook pro which is my traveling system. (was top of the line at the time...) I don't have much time to hope it all works if I upgrade the system, and I will be furious if I have to go out and drop 2,000.00+ on a new traveling system and toss everything over if i've already spent a chunk on 2 new units that I won't be able to return due to software licensing.

    So with that said...

    With running a whole bunch of "remix decks" and 2 F1's fully funking, Whats the ideal system NEEDED to run smoothly, and efficiently?
     
  20. gNNY

    gNNY NI Product Owner

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    79
    @Evolvethemovement: valid question but maybe you should open up a new thread for that because I'm afraid it would get buried here without a real answer.

    At least for me you don't have to call any cops as I did already acknowledge that the price difference is understandable when looking at the different price points.

    Although I am just as much in the knowing about manufacturing costs of NI's products as you are, I doubt that F1 costs are "way higher" than the X1 costs. X1 also has color LEDs, a lot of buttons and knobs. Using the same case helps reducing the cost of producing the F1 as well. So all in all, I'd say they are about equal. And your little equation that shows there is not much of a difference considering the different SW packages seems to back me up on that. But, who knows? Maybe you're right...

    The impression however that the inclusion of the full SW version gives is that existing users are paying extra for a piece of SW that they neither need nor want. I agree, for newcomers, this is a great offer (as long as they only buy one controller) but for existing users this could lead to some regrets.

    Interesting thought. How many X1 buyers don't use the controller with Traktor but instead with (say) Serato or VirtualDJ? And how many F1 buyers will want to use the controller rather with another DJ SW other than Traktor? Is there really a need to "push" Traktor onto users?

    My personal theory is that NI will discontinue the LE version of Traktor with version 2.5 or that the LE version will have no remix decks at all. Hence, if you want to make full use of the F1 controller, you'll have to get the full version of Traktor Pro 2.5. And that's why they've decided to bundle it with the controller instead of going with the LE version as they did with the X1 controller...