A61 mod wheel sending midi when not being touched

Discussion in 'KOMPLETE KONTROL SERIES' started by decredis, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. decredis

    decredis New Member

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    Hi, my A61 keyboard is sending mod wheel CCs even when I'm not touching it. So, when I have a VST open that has a setting controlled by the mod wheel, they sometimes jump to the mod wheel's current position (often not immediately but after a few seconds). If I change it back using the GUI, it nonetheless jumps again to the mod wheel's position a few seconds later. Is my keyboard faulty, or is there some way of resolving this?

    Thanks
     
  2. Uwe303

    Uwe303 NI Product Owner

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    4,467
    You could use a midi monitor plugin in your daw if you use one or a midi monitor program and if you see data coming in and I guess you will, then your device is defective.

    Uwe
     
  3. chaotixmusic

    chaotixmusic New Member

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    I think i'm having the same problem. I just bought a M32 and when i go to record something in. The pitch starts recording funky automation in when I'm not even touching the pitch strip... It's extremely annoying.

    I'm really hoping i didn't get a faulty unit.
     
  4. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,727
    As a test, if you move the wheel manually and hold it does the "funky" automation persist or is it stable at the position you hold?

    The issue will be typically one of 2 things:

    - Either there is some kind of electrical interference affecting the signal. This could be due to the USB cable not having a good grounding or using a different USB cable from the one supplied or if there is a strong electrical source close by, a power cable or something running parallel with the USB etc. If you have any USB hubs in the chain, remove them for a test.

    - The control itself has a fault where the resting position is slightly "dirty" or has an inconsistent part of the carbon track. This can be like when you have a poor connection for an audio signal that causes some crackle/distortion, in the potentiate it can cause the value to fluctuate slightly. This is something I would more expect from older hardware tho and not something new.

    Knowing what signal is being sent would be helpful, such as the values being sent. If it is a big range of signals then there is something strange and if you rule out anything to do with the USB connections, i'd be looking at sending it back.
     
  5. decredis

    decredis New Member

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    Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. Where I'm at with this is that Midi-OX midi monitor confirms that the keyboard is outputting mod wheel cc data when not being touched. It does it intermittently (a few times a minute). The cc data it outputs is data a few numbers around the actual position of the mod wheel.

    NI support accepted the keyboard back when I showed them video footage of the Midi-OX monitoring the fault, and sent me a brand new keyboard. Exactly the same fault recurred. So, they accepted that one back, and sent me out another brand new keyboard. Same fault again, albeit slightly less frequently (the mod wheel now outputs data once every minute or so on average).

    Kind of amazing that three out of three units so far all have this fault. I'm curious to know if any A61s don't have the fault.

    I'm slightly reluctant to keep sending my keyboard away to Germany, as it affects my productivity to not have it for weeks. The mod wheel fault is annoying and can be disruptive, but I'd rather have a keyboard all the time with the fault, than keep sending it away for no purpose.

    Considering whether to seek a refund now. Most keyboards won't have this fault, right? It's not something one is meant to just accept in a keyboard?

    (Incidentally, I also tested with multiple different usb cables, in different usb ports, on different computers, with different OSes, to rule out anything other than the keyboard being at fault.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  6. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,215
    I can reproduce this.

    1: manually rotate the mod value to 43
    2: the keybord left alone, the value varies between 43-44
    3: the mod value is turned to 38 by hand
    4: the keybord left alone, the value varies between 35-30

    Modwheel.PNG

    If the mod wheel is in the 0 position, I don't have this problem.
    This is a mechanical potentiometer problem.
    In my case the variation is very small and will therefore not be able to influence the sound.
    I will not return my A61 for this.

    René
     
  7. decredis

    decredis New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Hi
    Thanks, yes that’s interesting, it does seem for me too not to happen if mod wheel is set to zero.

    And yes, the data remains close to the actual mod position. If I’m actively using the mod wheel, it’s not too much of an issue. The problem is when I’m using the keyboard on a track where I’m not manually using the mod wheel but it does control a parameter on the track. It starts changing the parameter, or recording over existing cc1 automation.

    I suppose the workaround is to always set the mod wheel to zero before going onto a track.

    Still, seems kind of shoddy.
     
  8. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,215
    I hadn't looked at it from that side yet.
    Just tried out what you describe.
    I can also reproduce this.
    It is indeed annoying and undesirable.
    Hopefully this can be solved in the maschine software,
    otherwise they get busy replacing the Mod wheel potmeters.

    René
     
  9. Honga

    Honga New Member

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    I don't have this problem.
    Just working as it should.
     
  10. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,215
    Which keyboard do you use?

    René
     
  11. Uwe303

    Uwe303 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,467
    I also testet with my A49 and everything is fine. No jumps or anything, are you sure that the latest firmware is installed? If I remember correctly there was an issue with that but solved with the latest firmware.

    Uwe
     
  12. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,215
    Just provided the keyboard with the latest firmware (0.3.5).
    But in my opinion it makes the problem worse.
    In any case, that does not solve the problem.

    1: put the mod wheel into a position manually
    2: random play keys, and stopped
    3: mod wheel spontaneously gives value
    4: random play keys, and stopped
    5: mod wheel spontaneously gives value

    Modwheel 0.3.5.PNG

    René
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  13. Uwe303

    Uwe303 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,467
    Ahh OK I try it again with hard key strugs
     
  14. Honga

    Honga New Member

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    8
  15. Uwe303

    Uwe303 NI Product Owner

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    4,467
    No nothing i can hit the keys hard le most left ones and all others - no movement on modwheel
     
  16. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,215
    I also have an A25. See what it does with the mod values.

    René
     
  17. decredis

    decredis New Member

    Messages:
    10
    I do have latest firmware installed, the problem occurs with latest firmware. In my case the modulation output happens even without pressing keys at all. I just leave the keyboard untouched and modulation output happens intermittently with nothing touched. Same on both keyboards NI have sent out as replacements.

    I did ask the NI support guy this last time to make sure the keyboard was tested for this problem before sending it out, and I gave clear instructions on how to elicit and test for the fault, and I thought I understood from him that he was going to make sure of that, so it's kind of gutting that it still got sent out faulty.

    Honga Interesting to hear that your keyboard doesn't have the problem. That gives me hope that I will one day have an A61 without the fault! :)
     
  18. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,215
    Also if you have already exchanged a number of them,
    and have the same problem, this seems to me to be a production error, with this lot of A-61.

    René
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,215
    I connected the A25 this morning, and it shows the same problem.

    Test setup:
    MIDI-OX - (midi monitor)
    A25

    Nothing is done with the keyboard during the test.

    Modwheel A25 0.3.5.PNG

    Every so often (random) a number of CC1 codes are added. (see time stamp)
    It also depends on the position of the mod wheel.
    CC1 codes are sent faster in one position than in another.
    I have found this problem with the A25 and A61
    I can't test the A49, because I don't have it.
    But I don't think it will be any different.

    It seems that it concerns the quality of the mod potentiometer.

    René
     
  20. decredis

    decredis New Member

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    10
    Hey, thanks for your further testing, it does sound like it is a problem with the quality of the potentiometer, yes.

    I wonder what hope there is for resolution. Given that some but not all units seem to have the fault, is it worth asking NI to persist in trying to find one without it? I’m increasingly reluctant to keep sending it back to them, given they keep sending faulty ones back to me.