ABLETON 5 ANNOUNCED--and look out, NI

In addition to a ton of other features, Ableton Live 5 supports MP3 files. A ton of info here: http://www.kvraudio.com/index.php?s=main#news3559

You listening, Native Instruments? I love Traktor, but the bar just got raised.

 

not really. apples and oranges is more like it.

 

I don't think so. Ableton is gonna own this market if NI doesn't get on the stick. Sasha didn't ask NI to help him make a controller; he worked with Ableton. All the flexibility is there to do some really exciting things, and its potential is enormous. I really want Traktor to rise to this occasion, cuz now I can use my faderfox controller, bring in as many mp3s as I want into Live, match them, drop vox, add VST fx, repeat, rearrange individual loop slices, arpeggiate, accompany the thing through synths, and put Reason behind it for whatever original music I want to add--looped or not.

I've said for a long time that mp3 capabiltity is one of the few things keeping me loyal to Traktor, and I haven't been alone. Looking at the recent posts here -- customer dissatisfaction, buggy releases, clear laggin in DJ software vs. hardware development -- it's a fair bet NI is gonna be in the position of dinosaurs looking up at asteroid impact and saying, Ah, probably just thunder. I don't want that to happen cuz I like Traktor (2.5.3, anyhow). But 3.0 better have some serious ill shizit banging on.

 

Steve, normally I agree with you but this time on the evidence of that piece I don't see a whole lot that will see folks turning to Ableton in droves. The key problem with Ableton from a DJ'ing perspective is the Interface - sure it's a great program with some functionality that I'd love to have in Traktor but it's just not great to use from a DJ'ing perspective. (I speak from experience). Until they come up with another "view" I don't see it really dominating the market.
Incidently from what I hear in the UK Sasha's Maven is just a regular Midibox Project in a smart package - all this talk about Sasha's R+D of this controller is just hype from his PR people.

 

I have to agree with Steve.

This version is clearly ready for live spinning. The new clip transport and mp3 support is what they needed for that.

It looks really good...

 

After reading the article which is posted in this thread (follow the link in the first posting)

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/site/forum/showthread.php?t=25807

and reading this announcement today for Live 5, I also think NI will have a harder time selling Traktor to the professionals. Though the price difference is quite big (300 USD), Live is more stable (I'm using it in my home studio since version 2), it has a consistent development path and with every release it approaches to my dream tool for playing music infront of other people.

Let me explain...

Traktor offered a nice paradigm shift perspective of not just playing one record after another anymore (the old vinyl paradigm) because it offered loops but that remained quite a rudimentary feature not expanded after the first version. Everything else (huge file database, separated BPM and pitch controls) is nice but not enough in this age where digital changes the world of content production and consumption.

If we want to change the world of DJing we must do more than only be able to set basic loops, find our music fast in a huge collection, change BPM without changing the pitch of the track or only having filter effect. We must change the way we think about live REMIXING music instead of just playing it sequentially because that's what those prejudice-minded, vinyl-playing folks are doing.

Ableton is on the right way and very near of reaching this live remixing nirvana. It's the paradigm shift that's almost reality, not some perspective. But the more you can do, the more you'll have to know. Means: To give the music a new edge, you'll have to learn and know more about it. About programming grooving drums and bass lines, about playing keys (finally, you can use your Oxy8 the way it's meant to be used <g>), about music.

Embrace change!

 

BTW, you can take a tour and learn more about Live 5

http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=live5tour&sub=whats-new

(I cannot wait to get my fingers on this <g>)

 

it has vinyl control?

 

There is no and never will be vinyl control in Live as the philosophy of the product is different than that of Traktor. But why would you need vinyl anymore? I remember one promoter asking me, after I told him I play with Traktor, if I could play vinyl and Traktor at the same time while music comes from Traktor thus (basically) cheating people. In my eyes, even tough FS is a nice idea, it's still the same animal that plays records sequentially – no loops, no live remixing. Why fool people instead of thinking in new ways of DJing. Only if you're HipHop DJ wanting to compete at the DMC World DJ Championships, you'll stay with vinyl anyway as the digital world (still?) has nothing for your fast scratching and x-fader skills.

 

I know I'm not going to win friends with this one, but it has always seemed to me that Final Scratch is -- with the obvious exception of scratch DJs -- an expensive way of cosmetically appearing as if you aren't using a computer in front of a crowd. I suppose you could say it in a more positive way and say that Final Scratch is a way of leading DJs comfortable with vinyl into the computer mixing realm.

Re Live 5, I'm not saying it's the 800-pound gorilla--yet. I'm saying Ableton seems to be taking the necessary steps toward being it, and taking them faster than NI is. At least to the extent that I'm willing to try Live 5 out to see if it suits me better than Traktor does.

I definitely agree that even though Live is a terrific program, as a DJ tool it has required far too much preparation, which sort of belies the whole "performance" aspect of DJing. But V.5 now warps nearly any digital medium the second you loadit, beatmarks it automatically, and has algorithms to account for off-tempo (e.g., human) drumming, so that (theoretically) virtually anything can be beatmatched. Its crossfader is clunky, but since you can assign it to a MIDI fader, who cares?

I'm gonna try the puppy out when it's released. In a way I hope I prefer Traktor, because I love the app & don't want a new learning curve. But I'm also excited about the enormous potential of Ableton. In my happy ideal world, Ableton's continued innovation will incite development at NI and keep me a loyal customer. And if it doesn't, well -- Ableton's there, innit?

 

I've got mixed feelings about this issue. First and foremost, I definitely don't see myself switching to Live with version 5 (or probably v 6 or 7 for that matter). While it's incredible and offers much more functionality in some areas than Traktor, for what I do, Live requires too much prep work and not enough live flexibility (and not enough library handling flexibility). And, I would bet that would likely be the same for a great deal of other users as well...

However, Live is getting more and more practical as a DJ tool with each and every release. And, you had better believe that Ableton would like to own the DJ market. Of course, they can't just drop the whole Live paradigm to cater to DJs (lest they lose the support of the rest of their user base), but over the long term I think that both the paradigms that we hold as computer using DJs and the Live interface paradigm will start to converge more and more. As many people have pointed out, we're already eager to expand beyond the linear two deck method that's become the norm. If we're going to be able to do that, the UI will likely have to change to accommodate that as well.

Although I highly doubt it is happening, NI SHOULD be looking at Live and thinking about what they can "borrow" from it. I don't think anyone would dispute that Live has had things like warp markers that should have been in Traktor LONG ago. Moreover (and be warned, I'm going way off track here), NI just generally needs to get off of its ass with Traktor. I mean, I was at Guitar center the other day and I was playing with the Numark CDX as well as the Technics CD TT and the Pioneer CDJs and they really are pretty incredible tools. There are things that Traktor beats them at but, there are things that Traktor loses on.

I mean, the CDX has some nice sounding, easy to use built in effects. Why is it again that Traktor still doesn't support SOME kind of BPM synched effects? I mean, with AudioUnits (on the Mac) NI doesn't even have to code the effects for god's sake... That's not to mention that the vinyl feel with the CDX is pretty damn nice. It's not 100% (no needle dropping, not so great fine grained control over platter speed--like for beat matching) but then again vs. FS or SSL you've got an advantage in the fact that you don't have to deal with bad needles, bad vinyl, interface issues, etc. with the CDX.

Two, maybe three years ago, Traktor really was leading the DJ world IMHO. There were very few things that could even compare. However, the advantage is slipping VERY VERY quickly, whether to other software or hardware. In fact, I might even argue that there really ISN'T much of an advantage any more (short of a large music library). Creatively speaking, can anyone think of stuff you can do with Traktor that you can't on a recent CD TT? On the other hand, with Live, there are, at the very least, tons of creative things you can do that are simply impossible with CDs or vinyl (e.g. playing a large number of tracks in sync simultaneously).

I really hate to say it, but I really get the feeling that Traktor might be at the end of it's useful life as far as we are concerned and as NI is concerned. In theory (and in practice for me, at least) 2.6 was a solid upgrade. BUT, it took a year and a half to add features that arguably should have taken a few months to add. And, even with the new features I don't think anyone will argue that 2.6 introduced anything groundbreaking as far as creativity is concerned. Moreover, I don't think there's any dispute that stability is the #1 concern for all of us. And, unfortunately 2.6 was apparently a step backward for some users.

In many ways, Traktor kind of reminds me of QuarkXPress at version 3.0 (or was it 4). In its time it was the best, the standard, the professional choice for layout work. Then Quark took FOREVER to release a new version, and when they finally did release it, there weren't many compelling reasons to upgrade. In the meantime Adobe introduced InDesign, which while pretty shoddy in its first implementation, got better MUCH faster than Quark. As it stands now, Quark hasn't been killed yet, but InDesign has seriously challenged Quark and will likely overtake Quark in the long run.

What I'm saying is essentially, NI clearly had a winner on it's hands with 2.0, 2.5 was a winner as well but one which has gotten "long in the tooth" so to speak, 2.6 is basically an attempt by NI to just keep Traktor current (AAC support, FS integration, etc.). It's not a good pattern.

So far, we've got no indication if or when 3.0 will even be on the horizon. Correct me if I'm wrong (PhiL, Hobbes, etc.), but I don't think there is even ANY indication that NI is working or planning a 3.0 version at this time. If there is a 3.0 when do you think it will come out 2006? If we're lucky.

Personally, right now I'm betting that the Traktor "team" at NI is probably off on a three month holiday (like they take in the summer in Germany) while 2.6.2 and its unresolved issues slip further and further behind the curve of innovation. Of course, we'll never know that as users since we're clearly on the outside of NI's curtain of silence...

 

I'm with you all the way on that Steve. Nothing against our finalscratch using buddies, but I still think NI are missing the point that Final Scratch & Studio really appeal to two different types of DJ, .....& (even though they now have a lot of common code), there are will be occasions when DJ's from either side of the camp just aren't going to "get" where the other guys are coming from.

The whole mp3 thing for me is about portability & getting in & out of a club as quickly & easily as I can. I'm just not interested in a system where you have to re-wire the entire booth & turntables to your laptop before you start work.

Back on topic now..... If Ableton can use mp3's, & if I can get my head round the GUI & the entire concept (I've tried before, but It frazzled my brain), then I'll be definitely having a look.

 

The fact that in Ableton Live I could beatmatch any number of tracks -- simultaneously -- and invite a buddy to come up and play sax, loop a section while he plays, modulate it, and let it provide backing for him, and record the whole mess at the same time, all without stopping and with matched tracks going -- well, that's way cool. I just hope it's easier to improvise with tracks than it has been previously.

Live is well on the way to being a tool for remixing on the fly, and more than any single instrument or app out there, is blurring the line between DJ and musician, performer and coordinator, live and recorded play. The only reason I dont' use it much is because I'm not a very good player; I'm much more of a DJ. But if it's getting more accessible to DJs--and clearly it is--NI is gonna eat dust. I hate seeing it happen; NI has made wonderful products for years. But they've clearly neglected Traktor in favor of other products.

 

mp3 support?! I'm finally sold.

NI, I hope this isn't goodbye.

 

anyways u comparising 2 diferent products, one for live remix etc, and other to 2 mix 2 created songs, ableton is more innovator but is diferent thing from traktor, so this is like compare futbool to fishing.

 

The point is that they are not--that with 5.0, Live has drawn a bead on the DJ market and is poised to capture it if NI doesn't get on the stick. Traktor is different only because it has kept itself narrow--to a fault. To say that Traktor was created to mix 2 different songs is exactly the complaint we started with: the hardware mixer metaphor has been perpetrated in the software, insteadof opening up the potential a computer provides. Recreating hardware setups is no longer sufficient, especially when you consider that DJ hardware development has begun to seriously outpace software.

To call Live a remixing program is to take a narrow view of the app. It's also a multi-MIDI interface for live performance, an audio/midi recorder and sequencer, a loop player, and a DJ app, all of which can take advantage of multiple file formats, VST plugins, and Rewire.

 

There are some really compelling arguments made here for and against. I have to say I have to agree with a lot of what Steve and Gmint say. I'm torn between the two programs because I use them both. I love Traktor because I can step up to my system with absolutely no notion of what I'm going to play just a sense of mood and start building from there. @ hours later you could have been through deep house into progressive and breaks, off into trance and techo and back down into deep house or ambient. Any Track I have in my collection is fair game. All I had to do was buy it, (rip) import and analyze it, and I'm off to the races. From there who knows. with Live (assume Live 5) I Buy it (rip) marker and quantize it test the clips all come together and then I can start building tracks. It takes longer but I can insert any combination of clips that go together and turn 10 songs into 1 new one. When I start, I have a sense of where I want to go and I have lots of tools to get me there but I have to spend time preparing.

These two programs both have definite advantages over each other Put together they make an awesome team!

I think NI maybe have good grounds to be a little nervous (if they aren't they should be). First off Ableton are definitely catering to DJ's by providing format capabilities in Live that DJ's want. They are also working to solve some of the key roadblocks to broad DJ adoption, one being prep time. Thirdly there is a definite insertion of DJ mindset e.g. Deck A & Deck B its not new but it is now something that stands out.

I don't think there are going to be mass defections from Traktor, I know I won't. But Traktor now has another clear competitor in the market. Whether or not you can accept the requirements Live will place on your play style is a personal thing. Given the way I use Ableton today I can see it getting much more use when 5 releases. For me it won't replace the spontaneity of Traktor.

Live 5 should give us all cause to see what we want to see Traktor 3 to look like. Imagine what you could with a sampler and live-esque functions built into Traktor? Move over sasha here comes DJ ?????????????? ;-)

Phil

 

the thing im thinking is, FS2 is a new product, well i dont know how many time its out but no too much, im thinking when they release traktor 3.0, they make another hardware for final scratch or this is totaly diferent? I hope NI dont make the mistake again, the hardware of SA1 was "obius" a bad product but this works good, i hope they dont do the same again.

 

OK... consider yourself corrected.... ;-)

Phil

 

The article someone linked to in a post about DJ hardware outpacing software contained a reference to NI releasing 3.0 around Christmas, and mentioned sampling, a third deck, and new fx (if I recall correctly).