Solved Ableton Live 11 needs a new Midi Scripts for Maschine Controllers

Jeremy @ NI Can you check on the two bugs reported in the last two posts when you have a chance ?

 

For those asking about our general approach with our MK3 scripts, I had a quick chat with our Maschine team about it to understand more about the decision to move away from the “legacy” version. Louis-Louise Kay Elton Memishaj DataStrainMusic

This was a decision made a while back already and it’s not something we’re planning to change right now.
We generally prefer to offer a workflow that is slim but focussed and easy to understand, rather than functionality that is bloated and requires the manual open to use. At the time, it was the right thing to do because we wanted to offer a bit more, but if we were to build integration from scratch today, we’d take the thinner approach and probably try to do it without the need of a manual script (think KK integration). Right now, this is again an area we cannot over-invest in, due to ongoing MASCHINE+ feature and stability work, as well as the challenging compatibility landscape for desktop software products.

Maybe not what you wanted to hear considering you're all relying on Ableton quite heavily but at least you know what to expect.

 

I have a Workflow question for readers:
I recall seeing a video for the following MK3 workflow, which I would like to re-create in Live 11. If anyone here has seen it, or has any other insights how to accomplish this, I would be most appreciative.

Here is the desired workflow for the MK3, Maschine Plug-In and Live 11:
- Within the plug-in, all sound-related controls work just as in stand-alone. This includes, pads, touch-strip and automation, including all screen controls. HOWEVER,
- All MIDI data, including automation, is recorded in the relevant clip in Ableton session view, and playing back the clip plays the audio (on a separate, grouped track).
- All navigation within the Ableton Session View, as well as any mixing, is handled outside of the MK3 (although Navigation and Transport control would be nice if it were possible), either in software or with a separate controller (Push, LaunchControl, etc).

In the demonstration video I saw (and can't find again) there were 3 Groups in the single Maschine Instance - a Drum Group with MIDI on the main grouped track, and audio going to a separate grouped track; a Bass Group with 1 sound, and grouped tracks for MIDI and audio; and a Keyboards Group with 2 Sounds, 2 MIDI tracks & 2 audio tracks. Each Sound had a different MIDI Channel assignment, with MIDI Through disabled.

Anyone? (And thanks in advance.)

 

Hey Matt @ NI,

Thanks for the explanation to the group.
Have you guys reviewed the script that Elton Memishaj created for the MIKRO MK3? What are the chances you guys could work with him on a dedicated Maschine MK3 script? Maybe provide him with the hardware? He says he can make one with more functionality than he has now for the Maschine MK3, but he just needs the device itself. Just a thought.

 

Hello,

Thank you very much for your thoughts.

Sorry if you already know this, but the MIKRO MK3 unofficial script already works for MK3 too, without the 8x Encoders, 2x big screens, 8x Square buttons and other buttons not present in MIKRO MK3.

Would love to have the MK3 though, maybe I might consider buying it this year, I don't know, but I would definitely start a complete separate script for it.

More information about MK3 compatibility on unofficial MIKRO MK3 script can be found in this reply (link):
https://www.native-instruments.com/...mas-mk3-compatible.449377/page-6#post-2095201

Thanks again,
-Elton

 

That's a good idea and I also thought about it.
Unfortunately, Elton is still selling his script and this makes it difficult for us to expand on the idea. I'm open to discuss with him though if that's something he would be interested in exploring

 

Highly agree with Matt @ NI

I continue to sell the MIKRO MK3 unofficial script, which is a script for a hardware that has no official script being made/planned.
But this is different for MK3, however.
Since MK3 scripts are being offered by NI, officially, it makes absolutely no sense for me to sell any unofficial script for MK3, especially in the cases of a collaboration between me and Native Instruments.

I would be glad if I would be allowed to provide a donation system or something, but the unofficial script for MK3 would, of course, be for free and open-source, to allow for contributions from other developers, ideas, issue tracking and support for the consumer.

 

I'll keep this in mind and check if this is something we can look into together.
I'll get to you in PM Elton Memishaj

 

That would be awesome.

 

^^ Please somehow make this happen Matt & Elton. Us nerds want a decent, more integrated Live 11 script for the Mk3!

 

First, let me thank you for being the bearer of bad news, not an easy task, and thank you for taking care of it quickly and getting back to us with an answer.

This being said, NI's answer is indeed rather disappointing and especially confusing because it doesn't make any sense.

I'll argument a little and then leave it at that : having Maschine behave as a simple mixer isn't focused and easy to understand, it's just confusing and unclear. Proof is I remember very vividly the first time I launched what was called the "remote script" : I kept looking for quite a while how to use the pads, how to get them to light up, even if it's just a simple keyboard, how to shift octaves etc. before confusingly realizing none of this was possible with said "remote script", and all it offered was not, in fact, a simple and focused controller script like all the ones I'd previously used, but a weirdly and quite arbitrarily limited mixer.

Making the pads fit the Ableton Drum Rack layout so that we can use them to do finger drumming in Ableton isn't bloated it's... the very most basic thing you could want to do with your Maschine controller when opening Ableton (proof ot it is, again, that's exactly what people do with Maschine Jam and Maschine MK2). It wouldn't require a manual open to use, and the simple fact that Elton Memishaj had a multi-page threads with tons of people on it by making a script that does just that kind of showcase that it's not "bloated" and overly complex. Displaying the devices on each selected pads/tracks on the screen wouldn't be confusing it would actually be super clear and helpful.

I can see (even if I disagree), how it would start being more complex once you add stuff like note repeat, parameter lock etc. and frankly, I wouldn't even ask that kind of deep integration (it's for the Maschine software to offer and that's fine). But things like tempo, swing, touch strip for pitch shifting, pad mode, keyboard mode, steps... I really fail to see how any of this needs a manual, it all has a clearly laid out button that says, litterally "keyboard, chord, pad, step" right there on the controller, and has a 1:1 equivalent inside Ableton.

The last and most confusing thing of all, is that, because when you go online to figure out if you want to buy a Maschine controller, you still find lots of videos of Maschine MK1 and MK2 acting as Ableton controller (and even MK3 with legacy), it's easy to be led to think you'll have these kind of features when you buy Maschine, and the fact is you don't, which again is not easy and focused, just misleading. But the worse part is... that currently, the state of Maschine is such that a Maschine MK2 is somehow a better Ableton controller than a Maschine MK3 !

Which leads me to this point, if it's not a voluntary choice to limit the feature set of MK3 (compared to the Jam or to avoid people using it for Ableton more than for Maschine) and if it's indeed a desire to keep things simple because simple is better, why when updating MK1 and MK2 scripts did the dev team not made these two just a mixer as well? Why did they keep all the "bloated and manual requiring" features for MK1 and MK2 scripts when they could have ditched that away (it would have been faster) and just kept the "easy and focused" mixer, and why instead of updating the legacy script for MK3 (which everyone wanted), did they choose to update the basic mixer script ? I'm trully wondering why MK3 has a different treatment than MK1/MK2 that makes it a worse controller for Ableton, I'd love an answer to that if you can get us one.

Now all this being said, I think the real answer is "we don't want to, see little benefit in it, and have other priorities" and that's what I'll go with because at least that one makes sense.

If you can team up with Elton Memishaj and send him a much deserved full blown MK3 for him to create a script that's as focused as the incredible work he managed to do on his spare time for Mikro MK3, that'll do it for most of us I think, we just want to be able to use the controller to do what it's been designed for initially, no matter if it's NI who creates the integration or someone else.

Also, as an addendum, is it really a big legal issue that Elton Memishaj get paid / can sell his alternate script? If NI doesn't want / plan to provide one that has the same feature set, I hardly see the two scripts as being competing and I'd love to be able to pay for it because I see it as a lot of work for him and it should definitely be rewarded by the community.

Thanks to all involved for keeping this conversation alive, and I'm hopeful we can get this sorted by ourselves so that we stop being so reliant on NI to move things where we want them to be, more community control of its own destiny is a thing to wish for certainly and even if the mixer layout looks way sweeter than the dated midi layout usage of the two screens, the most important is to have visual feedback on the controller/pads/buttons of what happens in live anyway so that'd be fine by me.

 

It's super weird to me that this has been going on for 4 years since the MK3 was released and only now with Ableton 11 it became such a big topic, I went on and on about this at the time.

Kudos to Matt @ NI for opening this bridge of communication, this is unheard of since I've been here, I am a bit amazed there is an answer, bravo!
Altho I have no personal interest in controlling Ableton with Maschine HW it would be amazing to see NI working with an independent external dev, I'd clap for that standing up. Adding some features to the fancy Mixer Mode (Advanced Integration) would be cool too, at least Drum Rack control...

The Maschine Studio "Template" which the MK3's legacy script is based on had things like note repeat and most of that other stuff you're mentioning; I wouldn't say it was bloated but it wasn't super easy to learn either, it required some reading, it wasn't a 1:1 kind of thing because info on the screens is limited. Since I personally would fit myself in the more advanced/power-user kind of customer I don't think it was hard to learn but it probably was for the average user. Maschine has been leaning away from power users for quite a while IMO, I really don't like the idea of dumbing down the software to reach a super-wide customer base but I guess often that's a consequence of "democratizing music-making"...

I also believe whoever made this call at the time (which might not even be at the company anymore) totally undermined how many people use Maschine controllers for DAW Control, even folks who totally gave up on Maschine still hang on to the HW because of it.

 

Actually I know (and am thankful) you did because for the better part of those 4 years I've checked the forums and mostly relied on your post to get informations or lack thereof. I think the big shift with Ableton 11 is we went from having the new script with mixer and the old unsupported Legacy ones, which was a saddening situation because the newer scripts didn't offer much and the older script didn't take advantage of the screen, but technically, it wasn't a losing situation, we *still* had access to all the features of the legacy script.

With the release of Ableton 11, Native Instrument is not just telling us they won't update past the mixer, they're telling us we'll never have the option to use the legacy script anymore either, so we've effectively lost all the legacy script features with 11 which is, for anyone who uses the Ableton + Maschine combo, litterally the loss of an entire workflow, it's not a detail anymore it's the whole thing that's gone.

I actually agree with that, if you read back my comment, I'm actually saying that indeed adding features like note repeat and other things would make it possibly more complex to grasp (although frankly, not much more than learning the Maschine software either...) and that's why I was saying something already useful and straightforward would be simple control of the drumrack through pads.

100% agree with this statement.

100% agree with this statement too, and also that's how we end up with this absurd situation where Maschine MK2 is a better Ableton controller than Maschine MK3. Pretty crazy.

 

Yep I was never bothered until now because the legacy script did everything I wanted. It wasn't overly complex to me. It seemed to do what you'd expect. Very quickly realised how basic the 'new' remote script was so never used it.

Here's an idea. Rebrand it the 'Mixer script' or something so at least users know what they're getting.

Would very much like to see Elton being given the official go ahead and a bit of cash from NI (come on guys, I know budgets and all but... come on now, you're one of the biggest!) and at the very least revive the 'legacy' script for Live 11.

 

Thank you again for your appreciation.

To be fair, I do not want (and I do not have the right) to interfere with NI's intentions, plans and their roadmap.

For sure I would love to work on this big project (either with a collaboration or help from NI or by my self).

Sooner or later, I will buy the hardware and will start right immediately.
My current state is that I have a full time job (Typescript & Web developer) and also "studio time", but surely I would love to invest time on this well worth script and community.

 

Hello matt@NI is it possible to know if this problem for MK2 controller will be fix in a new remote script update... the problem with "next device" and "tracks" button is really
Can you make an official answer... Best

 

Hey ! anybody here ? ...

 

any news ?

 

Hey, sorry for the slow reply.
Please reach out to our support if you have any issues with the script. They will be able to file a bug and report back to our team directly. Unfortunately, there's quite a lot to do on the Maschine front so this needs to go through the proper channel and be prioritized accordingly.
You can use the form here to contact us: http://bit.ly/NIsupport_maschine
Thank you

 

Would be amazing to have a full script to control ableton almost like a push does but with the maschine. I hope the collaboration works out