Ableton Push!

The best of both worlds, NOTHING can replace the Maschine, esp the new MK2 i just picked up, but having an Ableton Controller as badass as this means I'm about to have my two favorite things at my fingertips!

 

Well, one thing is you can use MaxForLive to probably do it very easily (and I write in Max/MSP so I have toyed with this idea). That said, again, I'm still having to add a lot of work programming instead of working on my music. 16 pads is just not enough for me when doing melodic content and most of the 64 pad choices just never really grabbed me for the price.

But yeah, I like thinking about music from a different sort of grid. I play guitar as well, so I already think in a grid and not so much in a straight mostly linear layout.

 

NI doesn't do early product releases. Usually if they announce something its about a month or two before its shipped. Unlike other companies who hype up a product and the final looks and works nothing like what was promised. With NI what you see is what you get when announced.
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What you are proposing is exactly what happened to Kore. We all know how that turned out.

Once Kore broke away from the hardware is pretty much became redundant and useless. The hardware didn't work that well as it was. Growing pains for NI.

 

Yeah, it would have have been smart for Ableton to integrate it more with Drum Racks for all that but it doesn't even compare to Maschine in that department at all with no slicing on hardware, no waveform on LCD...etc. And I haven't seen any mention or example of using the Push in the Maschine way of working, like using encoders for start/end points, quick duplication of pads...etc.

The fact that Push also doesn't even automap to plugins and can't do things like step automation, and would still force you to use the mouse/trackpad for a lot of little things (like opening/closing plugin windows) makes it even less appealing, especially at that ridiculous price point. I'll probably try out the inevitable "Push template" for the Lemur app on iPad though.

 

IMHO detailed sample editing is better done with a computer screen and a mouse. It's fine that Maschine offers screen-less editing though.

Pushs integration with (drum) racks/chains will be quite elegant, scrolling though chains with the Touch Strip for example. Quite an elegant solution for these versatile endless routing/layering option which Maschine lacks considerably.

Automapping plugin parameters is overrated. What good is automapping when the user has to navigate through 3 pages in order to get from controlling osc1 vol to osc2 vol for example and end up manually mapping parameters nevertheless.

Instantiate any plugin (plugs with <=32 params get automapped automatically, save the instance with your preferred settings/maps as rack and instantly browse it with push. Same as saving sound modules containing plugins in Maschine.

Of course you can browse plugins natively, but not plugin factory presets, so that's hardly a workflow advantage, because other that trying to find dozens of automapped parameters you can't do much with a plugin instantiated that way and have to reach for the mouse nevertheless.

And opening/closing plugin windows on the computer screen from the maschine controller distracts from working screen-/mouseless with Maschine. Why do you want to see the plugin window on the screen when you're experiencing hands-on screen-less Maschinism?

 

Not sure what you mean by "detailed" but I think many Maschine users would disagree with you.

It's more useful to have immediate control via automapping on some plugins more than others. It's just better to have that option than not.

It depends on the plugin. It can come in handy to reference the plugin GUI and it's nice not having to break the hands-on workflow by having to reach for the mouse and click around on the computer screen just to be able to look at a plugin window.

 

Yeah i know what you mean, i have touchable too but its nice to have solid pads...i normally run v control pro on the ipad that way you have faders with the launchpad...

Come to think of it I dunno if push interests me at all, damned marketing hype had me going lol

 

No that is not what I'm saying at all. Kore and Maschine are not the same. What I'm saying is if they could focus on the integration as a vst it would really allow you to be more efficient in a daw. On the other side if they focus on the Standalone separate then they would be more efficient on that end as well. When I work in a DAW I want to work in the DAW when I'm in standalone that is exactly what I want it to be. If you are going to call it standalone then it needs to do just that. Trying to do it all in one takes away from it's capabilities in both environments in my opinion. Kore didn't have a sequencer and would have been more successful as a performance tool for pianist. NI is seeming like they don't know what they really want to do with this thing. They have so many great VST Instruments I can't believe they haven't just merged it not with Komplete but with Battery, Kontakt, Massive inside. I don't understand why they didn't use kontakt for the sampler it's crazy. If you are going to sell complete for 499 or whatever Maschine is 599. They still have room to make this a legendary product in it's own right. Kore was a good idea at the time and I know people who still use it for what it was good for. The way you can combine sounds to make one big sounds is amazing. I also don't understand if they discontinued it why didn't they add that element in Maschine. Don't get me wrong I think N.I is trying but they are confusing me. Hopefully 2.0 will be a nice humungous leap ahead. I don't care how they do it but Maschine and Traktor need to work together synced perfectly no offset latency seamlessly cohesive. They need to take advantage of the power of these PCs and Laptops I have 16gb of ram and a quadcore processor hello! If everyone wants Maschine to survive like I think they do they will begin giving N.I constructive criticism because no lie that Ren is nasty and Push looks very promising. I hope they look at how 599 is mid level for Akai's MPC Studio people will spend 1199.99 but if N.I can do 899.99 like they did with the S4 that would be great.

 

I think they have done stuff we requested. Maybe not everything, but they can only do so much. I paid $600 for the new mk2 and its worth every penny. I bought it to make music and not complain what it doesn't have to make up for lackluster skills of making music. You dont even have to touch the mouse to make a skeleton beat on the mk2. Sampling is butter on it. NI do accpet criticism, thats why they have the feauture request thread I think. Their second behind avid in interface sales according to Flux from the NI anniversary party. I could be wrong. I've used Ableton for 7 years. I left 8 due to its bugs.I used an mpc for nine years Users are jumping ship because tolive 9 and push because its the hottest thing I think. I don't really get caught in the gear thing or the hottest thing because I think some have the mind state that this item will make my music better or the ren is the cool thing to have because its an mpc. I tried the ren and I feel sampling is better on maschine. You dont have to look at the computer screen when chopping on maschine. Either or your going to use wha works for you. Im more confident in NI due to their track record of great products. I've had 2 crashes with Maschine in my five/six years of using it. Their dedicated hardware quality and drivers have worked well. While push is the new hot thing and the ren. I think with the maschine sequencer overhaul (which I'm sure they are doing) some users will be right back finding a way to switch from their push or ren to the maschines new product. Maybe... NI are quiet-I didn't think they would do something like the s4 or z2 which are freakin excellent. It's always that cycle when you doubt them and then boom you check their website and they drop some new product we don't expect. LOL. Just my 2.

 

Well, considering that Maschine comes with the enough software to finish a project and Live will set you back a few hundred more dollars, I'd say that's fair.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I appreciate what Maschine does do well. Like lots of users, I sometimes unfairly want Maschine (or even Live) to be more than it is.

I'd also just love to have one crucial controller for composition and performance, but life may not be that simple.

 

Why would you want to take away functionality just because you personally don't find it useful?

I think you're very wrong. All the communication from NI indicate that they have an extensive roadmap and longterm plans ahead for Maschine.

Because those are pre-existing products with their own code. Maschine was designed and built from the ground up. That doesn't mean that all of NI's products are not integrating closer together but that doesn't happen overnight.

The way you can combine sounds to make one big sounds in Maschine is also amazing.

Maschine is not Kore and it's not going to do everything exactly like Kore did.

NI has already said Maschine and Traktor are becoming closer together, such as remix deck support.

I'm sure they've never thought of that. What would they do without you?

Yeah, I heard the bugs and constant crashing are quite nasty on the Ren, even after the new panic update.

 

As I'm thinking about this more, I'm just happy that we Maschine users will hopefully be seeing some great news (maybe 2.0?) between now and 1st quarter.

1.8 was a giant leap to what should have already been, so I'm still hungering for something new.

 

Yeah the more I think about it too, I'm realizing that what I really want from Push is just the amount of pads, velocity, and the scale system. The rest I could take or leave. That being said, if I could have those three things in an uber-Maschine, I'd be a happy guy. But reality says I'd probably have to get both...

 

Exactly. Noisriot is such a fanman he can't wrap his head around the fact that N.I has a lot to improve on. The stuff I said wasn't rocket science dude so I'm not going to waste my time explaining it again. Why the hell would you need 2 sequencers at the same time Noisriot? What possible use do you have for 2 different sequencers Noisriot? Please explain that to me.

 

Because a lot of people use Maschine as a plugin inside a DAW like Live and take advantage of having Maschine's sequencer available inside the DAW's sequencer and the ability to use the Maschine hardware to control both, like this:
[ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WcbjOm1uhY&t=02m56s"]Using Ableton Live w/ Native Instruments' Maschine for Production & Performance - YouTube[/ame]

Why would you want to take away functionality just because you personally don't find it useful, vinceprice? Please explain that to me.

 

Standalone is where it's at because Push is gonna do just that Push Maschine out of Ableton or out of the market. There is no need for 2 sequencers in Ableton it's more work. If you can tell me why I need 2 sequencers maybe I'll try it out. I'm not talking about anything else but the sequencer though fam. Maschines sequencer isn't even good it's barely alright. I'm sure not many paid for the sequencer but the hardware/software integration. I said this a while ago N.I better hope Ableton doesn't come out with a controller like this. I already gave N.I 599 I'm not going to ....ride them too. MK2 is MK1 with more lights and a knob that should have been there in nthe first place. Also the Ren is dope I didn't experience a bug when I was using it at the AES and so what if it has bugs so did Maschine when it came out and it still has bugs it comes with the territory. The ball is in N.I's ocurt now because they are about to jump a # up so we'll see how they compete. Right now Akai and Ableton are looking better. I'm definitely getting Push. Then I'll see if I want the MPC.

 

No need to respond my dude. Users are going to switch and then come back I know it. Whatever else is out non NI you buy the hottest other product and then NI drops something and then its time to ride the NI bandwagon again. If you go to the mpc forum you can read some of the issues with the ren. With the complaints about maschine sounds like some users don't know how to use it to it's fullest potential. How do you not know how to record audio into maschine and it's been out 4 or so years? How do you not know how to sample without timestretching. I never used it in the 2000xl. Just never did.. New gear is not going to make you music better. Check out producer mdl who did the bieber record "boyfriend". Just fl studio and a laptop. I guess my beats are going to be better with two rens and maschine lol. I remember having an mpc 2000 xl, maschine, and apc 40 all at the same time. Too much... It's your money so folks can do what they want.

 

lol Keep dreaming. Live/Push is no match for Maschine when it comes to chopping samples with a mouseless hands-on workflow, which is why so many Live users now use Maschine. Push doesn't even compare to Maschine in that department at all with no slicing on hardware, no waveform on LCD, and so far there's been no mention of the encoders automatically mapping to start/end points of samples or being able to do things like quickly duplicate pads from the hardware. The fact that Push also doesn't even automap to plugins and can't do things like step automation, and would still force you to use the mouse/trackpad for a lot of little things makes it even less appealing, especially at that ridiculous price point. So relax because Maschine is going nowhere.

Just because you have no need for it doesn't mean NI should take out the sequencer as a plugin. The video I posted earlier explains how many people use Maschine's sequencer as a plugin.

Then go use something that you think is better. Problem solved.

lol So you played with a display unit once and you're trying to say that brief experience negates the long list of bugs and crashes that are well documented at the MPC forums? When Maschine first came out it had a few bugs but a quick update a few weeks later made it very stable ever since. That comes nowhere near the amount of bugs and crashing the Ren is now known for, even with the new update Akai pushed out in panic which introduced even more bugs.

Because they're trying to respond to the wild success of Maschine? Because Akai abandoned all their hardware MPCs and prematurely released a buggy crash-prone beta product that wasn't even ready just to try to slow the mass defection to Maschine? Because Ableton are attempting to fix their reputation after it took a catastrophic hit by years of buggy Live 8 debacle and are now trying to ape NI by announcing a way overpriced controller with the same slim form factor that fits in a backpack, a row of encoders and LCD display that shows parameters for the encoders, usb bus power, RGB led backlit velocity sensitive pads, dedicated buttons, lack of faders...etc. that won't even be released until next year?

 

I agree with this. I think they even stated something along those lines in the Live 9/Push event video.

 

Holy F-bomb, I want one. Of course there will be bugs, it will be pricey, I have already no desk space left, and, um, I can't stand Ableton. It's confusing as can be if you've been using Cubase forever.