Advice needed re. mastering midi files

Hi folks

This is really an extension of my earlier post. I would REALLY value some insights from more experienced users on how to master my midi files for maximum quality/ consistency.

I'm new to Bandstand and have bought it in order to re-master the midi files I use in our hi-tech duo. My first effort (10 years ago) was to record through a Korg sound module and manually balance the volume of different tracks whilst recording onto the analogue inputs of a minidisc player (which is what we've since used for stage use). The tracks sound ok-ish on their own, but weak compared to commercial CDs, particularly in the bass frequencies.

It seems clear to me now that (i) I can improve the quality of the tracks by using the bandstand midi samples and at the same time (ii) I SHOULD be able to make a better job of getting the tracks to a similar level (rather than doing it by ear), and then recording the finished products to minidisc via SPDIF.

I'm using Bandstand, and Sonar 5. This appears to present me with two broad approaches:

1. Use Bandstand as a standalone app. Mix each track and mixdown to a stereo file (maybe using limiting to maximise volume; please note that MAX volume per se is not the goal here, but rather a consistent volume across all the different tracks that I process in this way). Advantages of this approach are ease / speed etc. But would this be at the expense of available quality?

2. Use Bandstand as a DXi plugin for Sonar. This is slightly more fiddly in terms of patching each and every instrument to the synth etc, however has the *possible* added advantages of allowing me to access compressor / normalising / maybe higher quality limiter functions? It also would allow me to mix and process in 24 bit plus a higher sampling rate, and then dither down to 16 /44.1 before recording to minidisc on SPDIF. This is more fiddly etc, and probably not worth it IF the difference is not likely to be noticeable...

I know the most obvious advice is "just experiment!" which I am doing. However with the complexities of modern DAWs and plugins there are always many ways to skin a cat and I'm hoping that if you've read this far, and have some experience to share, that you'd be willing to drop me a few lines to guide me in the right direction.

Many thanks - there comes a point where 'the manual' just finishes, and it's only a conversation with someone who's walked this way before can help!

Thanks again, Bill Hester

 

Hi Bill

Can I first ask, is Bandstand the best sound source you have? I say this because in my band we play midi backing tracks on my Roland Fantom X6 because those sounds are far better than Bandstand's and I also have the choice of c.2,000 patches inlcuding the 128 GM ones which Bandstand is limited to.

I do however use Bandstand to make demos to put on CDs for other band members to use at home for practice purposes and I do this in Sonar, also using a 'pixie-dust' tool called FinalPlug. Let me know if you want to know more along these lines.

Regards
John

 

Many thanks John - yep Bandstand is it for now, and to be honest I think it's going to be fine (much better than the old Roland JV1010 I had been using previously). The key question is whether the Bandstand limiter is any good.... I'm guessing that the limiting increases in severity as you go through 'soft' / 'medium' / 'hard' / 'gentle boost' / 'push' and certainly the 'loudness' of the tracks seems to increase with each setting. However as I review each waveform in Sonar after exporting the file from Bandstand, it appears to be virtually identical, i.e noticeably less peaky. I'm very interested to know which setting will preserve more of the natural dynamics of the sound (not having a huge knowledge of limiters as you can tell!).

Very grateful for further thoughts (and also interested in details of the final-plug tool you mention - is this a mastering tool? I'm also wrestling with the question of "what do I do to arrange the 40 or 50 midi files I've got to process through bandstand to be mostly the same volume as one another" - will imiting do this or should I be considering compression, or limiting/compression followed by normalisation. Then, peak or RMS.....it's a nightmare!

Really appreciate any words of wisdom

Thanks, Bill

 

Bill, I do my finishing work in Sonar and I haven't tried the limiting options in Bandstand. Your ears are your guide (as usual) but I think I'd stick to the medium setting in case of over-doing it. There's a balance to be struck. Compression and limiting squish things together and facilitate loudness but can make for some blandness, i.e. the whole song is more or less at the same level, cf. modern singles. This may not matter for one track (and that's all record companies are interested in - their own product) but across whole sets in an evening this could be a little artificial and aurally fatiguing.

One thing you must do is normalising. You'll need be in Sonar for this. This essentially raises the level of the loudest point of the track to the ceiling and raises everything else in proportion, giving you some extra loudness. There's no downside to doing this - it's the place to start before doing any other sweetening. If you do this to all your songs then this will help acheive your goal of rendering them so they're all at similar volume levels.

WaveArts make the great little Sonar plugin called:
Link to FinalPlug which is peak limiter and volue maximiser. It's very simple to use - but be careful not to overdue it. I always use it just before converting audio to MP3 and it helps give it that 'pro' punch. Maybe if you normalise each song and apply FinalPlug at the same setting for each one you might end up with what you need.

There are lots more techniques to mastering, and I haven't even mentioned 'sculpting' with EQ, but if you're not careful you can get lost in the maze. Start with some simple techniques and see how it goes before adding more variables and losing sight of what is actually working and what isn't. Remember also to take frequent breaks when doing this or what you thought was a great final product at the end of the night will sound poor in the morning, due to the rapidity with which our ears adapt to prolonged concentration on sounds.

Regards
John

 

Many thanks John - that's (again!) a very helpful reply. I've taken a look at the FinalPlug and am just trying to figure out whether it's worth the $199 investment.... I'd love to know a little more about how the limiter in Bandstand works (I know you haven't used this at at all). It appears that it has some of the same functionality as final plug, but the user-controllable variables don't seem to be terribly well-labelled. For instance, in order to just catch the peaks (which is what I'd want to do to maintain dynamics), you would typically expect some kind of threshold adjustment. The Bandstand limiter has 'input', 'release' and 'output' with a window that shows attenuation. I can see the effect that changing the release has on the attenuation, but otherwise it's not clear to me what the 'input' adjustment is for.... Similarly with the presets, it has soft, medium and hard limiting and it appears that the soft limiting is showing a lower threshold, with more gain reduction and a slower release, whereas the 'hard' limiting is a faster release (catching the peaks I guess). However the waveforms that I output and view in Sonar don't appear to show any major difference in the waveforms i.e they're all looking much more squashed than the original. I'm guessing that the Finalplug has better controls.... is it possible to set this to just clip the biggest peaks off? That way I could then normalise all the songs and expect that they would be in better alignment....

Much appreciate any further thoughts, especially if anyone has experience with the Bandstand Limiter and can throw some light on the subject

Thanks again, Bill

 

Hi Bill,
Yes, as you'd expect in a specialised tool, FinalPlug only has a handful of presets since most users will want to experiment, and as you can see from the screen shot on their web site, the controls are sliders so you can make settings as personalised as you like. So yes, you can set it just to limit the main peaks if you wish. (BTW, there is only that one screen in the product). Why not download and try the demo? It's simplicity iteself to install and fire up in Sonar.

Bandstand is attempting to make things easier I guess by only offering limited presets; it is after all a broad tool as opposed to one specialising in just a couple of tasks.

Best of luck!