AK1 true USB 2.0 device?

hey everyone, does anyone know the maximum usb bandwidth of the AK1? NI only states it's USB 2.0, lots of manufacturers claim to be 2.0 only to have a maximum throughput of 12mbps (real usb 2.0 speed is 480mbps)

also after reading all 3 pages of this forum i'd also like to know who likes the unit after the fade in firmware fix. thx cheers

 

you mean noone has subjected their AK1 to rigorous and extensive bandwidth testing procedures on multiple host machines running testing software to determine if it's 12 or 480kpbs because of the lack of information on NI's website describing the product??? i find that hard to believe!







kidding!


...anytime you wanna jump in here NI

 

What programs would you use for bandwidth testing? I've never done something like that but I'd like to try...

It's gotta be more than 12mbps with 2 in 4 out at 192kHz/24bit (192000/s x 24bit x 6 channels = 27648000bit/s).

AK1 has been working fine so far on my 3 days old MacBookPro, I haven't tried yet to push it very hard, though.

 

Your question doesn't make sense.

Firstly the AK1 doesn't have a throughput at all - the USB2.0 connection does. It is the USB 2.0 protocol that allows up to 480 mbps. The AK1 can use up to this bandwidth if it is USB 2.0 compliant. It is very unlikely to use all of the available 480 mbps and that would not be recommended.

Secondly, what manufacturers "claim to be 2.0 only to have a maximum throughput of 12mbps"? If what you are saying is that there are manufacturers claiming to have USB 2.0 complaint devices that are really only USB 1.1 then I am all ears but I think you are wrong. Examples please.

Anyway, the AK1 must use the USB2.0 protocol. You could not do what the AK1 does* with a USB 1.1 connection as the bandwidth is not sufficient:

*6 audio streams at 192kHz/24bit
+ control information from built in controllers
+ full midi in out

USB 1.1 devices do not allow simultaneous playback and recording at anything over 48Khz sample rates because the USB 1.1 protocol does not afford them the bandwidth to be able to do so reliably. The AK1 allows you to do this all the way up to 24 bit 192k, whilst using it's own controls and running midi devices off it. It is definitely a USB 2.0 device and takes advantage of the additional bandwidth offered by USB 2.0. It probably doesn't use the full bandwidth because it doesn't need to. It is possible to make a USB 2.0 device with even more channels - there are some on the market and NI have the audio 8DJ which has two more inputs for example.

To answer your second question, I have recently bought an AK1 and did the firmware update before using it. I will reserve full judgement until I have used it for a bit longer but initial impressions are very good - sound quality is good, low latency with no glitches and the controllers work as they should.

 

thanks for the replys guys.

here's some info

USB 2.0 and High-Speed Are Not The Same
It is important to note that the statement "This device has USB 2.0" does NOT mean "This device supports High-Speed". It means "This device is compliant with Rev 2.0 of the USB spec, in which High-Speed support is optional". It is entirely legit for a product to be "USB 2.0" and still only run at "Full Speed", not "High-Speed".

There was considerable argument within the USB Implementors' Forum (USB-IF, see below) that this would cause confusion among consumers. Indeed, if you ask 100 people who have heard of USB 2.0, "What does that mean about this product?", 99 of them will reply, "It means it runs at High-Speed". WRONG ANSWER.

The right answer is: "It means it MIGHT run at High-Speed". The 1 person in 100 who knows better is typically a technoid geek (or a Glyph employee) who reads carefully. And now, YOU know better.

What this means to YOU is: When you buy a USB-capable device that you want to run at High-Speed, make sure if it says "USB 2.0" it ALSO says "High-Speed", AND also look for the special USB "certified" icon that shows the red "HI-SPEED" swoosh:

http://www.glyphtech.com/site/technology/usb.html


this is a good page too

http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm



the reason i came to this forum is that i've been hounding for the right interface for my laptop. it doesn't have firewire but it has usb 2.0 and pcmcia. i believe that emu.com's 1616m pcmcia interface spec out at 200mpbs. alot of people say that pcmcia is faster than usb 2.0 at 480mbps. i don't see how that's possible if pcmcia is less than half the speed. and like i said i've been looking at specs on websites for audio interfaces lately and i'm almost positive i saw a usb 2.0 audio interface and in the specs it said 12mbps. combined with these websites on usb 2.0 specs maybe the two got crossed in my mind a little since i havent been able to find that link and i dont remember what it was.

good to hear you like the NI unit deep. interested on your further testing.

felix, my first reply was a joke i made it up. although i would really like software like that myself. then i could know exactly how fast my interfaces are operating at.


but you can see how many words already in this one post which could have been energy best used elsewhere if manufacturers would be more detailed in their product specs! all i really wanted was an NI employee to post 12 or 480 for the AK1 here which i feel would be their duty if one saw this post since they probably know the answer that a potential client would be looking for

 

interesting formula, the 6 ch's, is that the four ouputs and two inputs ? does this make 27.6mbps or am i reading this wrong??

 

Interesting. I've not heard of USB 2.0 and high speed USB 2.0 being seperate things. I'm not sure I'm 100% convinced - although I'm open to persuasion. I note that while the first link supports what you are saying, the second link you provide does not.


You still did not give any examples of devices that claim to be USB 2.0 but only use 12 mbps data transfer rate. You were very specific in saying lots of manufacturers do this. Which ones?

I don't know the exact specs of PCMCIA tbh but if, say, it only takes 120 mpbs to transfer all the audio that the 1616m uses, then the "ceiling" of the connection is irrelevant. PCMCIA / Cardbus is a pretty solid connection (possibly more so than USB) I would be happy relying on it anyway. I also know of plenty of people using multiple i/o firewire audio interfaces via PCMCIA adaptors.

I really don't think you should have any concerns with PCMCIA Cardbus as a connection type for an Audio interface. I would have chosen it over USB if my laptop had a PCMCIA slot.

There are only about 8 different USB 2.0 interfaces I think. From memory Tascam have two, EMU have two, there is the AK1, The Edirol UA101, The Motu 828 Mk2 USB and one other which I can't recall the name of but I think has quite a lot of ins & outs. It should be pretty easy to check through them to see if any of them really are only 12mbps or if you are mistaken.

Well, like I said earlier I don't know whether I really am convinced that USB2.0 doesn't already mean that a device uses the faster 480kbs speed anyway. Is there really a question for NI to answer? One thing I am certain of though is that the AK1 couldn't do what it does using 12mbps.

 

Really interesting details here. As for the "Hi Speed" USB detail, i quote from wikipedia:

"Though Hi-Speed devices are commonly referred to as "USB 2.0" and advertised as "up to 480 Mbit/s", not all USB 2.0 devices are Hi-Speed.

Hi-speed devices typically only operate at half of the full theoretical (60 MB/s) data throughput rate. The maximum rate currently (2006) attained with real devices is about half, 30 MB/s.[4] Most hi-speed USB devices typically operate at much slower speeds, often about 3 MB/s overall, sometimes up to 10-20 MB/s.

The USB-IF certifies devices and provides licenses to use special marketing logos for either "Basic-Speed" (low and full) or Hi-Speed after passing a compliancy test and paying a licensing fee. All devices are tested according to the latest spec, so recently-compliant Low Speed devices are also 2.0."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Transfer_speed

 

Ok I am now convinced by the "USB 2.0 does not = high speed USB".

Still would like some examples of audio interface manufacturers that are exploiting this confusion though.

 

That's what I was trying to say. I suppose a bandwidth of 27.6mbps is required for pure audio signal. I haven't tried 192kHz though because my software only supports 24bit/96kHz.

Interesting discussion of "2.0" not being "High-Speed", hadn't heard of that before. The whole thing made me curious, so I watched out for any USB-certification icons, and couldn't find any. Neither on AK1's packaging/manual nor on the unit istself. Interesting.

Eventhough AK1 is doing what I expect it to after all, I would highly recommend a CardBus interface. I used RME's HDSP CardBus+Multiface hardware and I can't think of a single time that it screwed up on me. I'd love to continue using it, but my new MacBook Pro only provides an ExpressCard34 slot. An adapter is not yet available, that's why I bought AK1 at all. After all the discussions in this forum I remain sceptical towards general stability of USB.

 

i guess theoretically speaking then to support 192khz the ak1 would have to go over 12mpbs. RME looks cool but out of my price range. same with emu's cardbus options, plus i read too many reviews that the card is way too fragile.

i think i've made up my mind though, tax return = AK1 this year! woo hoo!

 

The AK1 is the biggest mistake I've made in choice of equipment. The driver is ***** and cuts out all the time with BOTH of my laptops.

 

Hi junkimunki,

please give us more details. You usually have to make sure that you optimize your laptop for realtime audio. I have seen no laptop in the near past which is prepared for low latencies out of the box. In most cases the network adapter has to be deactivated since it polls the CPU regularly. If you haven't done yet, please check the AK1 troubleshooting guide first (AK1 update manager). If this does not help, give us the model name of your laptop, so that we can check the components used.

 

Heh, I can relate to that.

I sent back 2 of these cards due to poor performance and freezing with Traktor. I went with the Edirol FA-101, and I'm glad I did. This card needs it's own power source, instead of only being powered by USB, and I'm afraid the Audio 8 DJ is going to have the same fate as the Audio Kontrol 1 due to no external power option, but only time will tell on that.

The Audio Kontrol 1 worked "decent" on my desktop, because I've got a huge Hiper 580 watt power supply, but with my laptop only having a 65 watt power supply, this card was pulling too much juice from the USB port and causing the card to choke. It was clicking/popping/glitching, and it froze on me during a huge gig, with my laptop 110% tweaked for audio only, and that did it.

I tried for a couple weeks to get this card working good with my laptop, but it wasn't going to happen. The M-AUDIO Fast Track Pro, having an option for external power, worked like a charm, and it's only USB 1.1. If I ever use any USB card, it would probably be the Edirol UA-101 because it is a USB Hi-Speed device, and has the option for external power also.

I hope you get your issues resolved.

Good luck!