Akoustic Piano: Feels like the first time?

Hi N---;
Please pass this on to Native Instruments. Thanks.
I was all set to buy Synthogy Ivory when N__ at __ suggested I listen to the demos of Akoustik Piano. I did and I agreed that I liked the sound better, especially the reverb and the Steinway Concert Grand D. However, after playing it for two weeks, I find that although the raw sound is exquisitely beautiful , because the piano is so poorly regulated and voiced, causing certain notes to jump out at you and other notes to be much too dull, the end result is a very unsatisfactory instrument.
I'm a classical pianist. For the last 30 years I have tuned, regulated, repaired, and voiced my own Baldwin grand. I have also reconditioned three old uprights. Last year I completely restrung my Baldwin and replaced all the hammers with top-quality Renner hammers, the same hammers that are used in Akoustik Piano's concert grands. It is a very tedious and exacting art to properly regulate and voice a piano. If you go to rennerusa.com, click Technician Pages, and download Voicing the Renner Hammer and go to 6. Evenness and 7. Balance, you will see how Renner suggests that it be determined if a piano is properly voiced. For myself, I prefer to play up and down certain sections of the keyboard chromatically, usually quite hard, listening very closely for which notes seem out of place. On the Steinway, G#4 and D#6 stand out like sore thumbs.G4 is also very bad, and the entire midrange from D4 toD#5 is much too loud and bright and out of balance with the rest of the piano. Notes that are too dull are:A6, A#6, E3,F3, F#3, D2, D#2, E2, G2. In addition the entire bass below C3 (which itself is fine) gets progressively weaker and weaker. I have never played a piano with such a weak bass, except for possibly one old upright with 75-year-old strings. I admit that I have a very fine ear, but I think that anyone can tell that G#4 and D#6 are much too bright; play B6 and then A6 -- it's obvious that B6 is much louder and brighter. Also, play all the G's from bass to treble; it's very clear that the midrange G is much louder than the bass G.
On the Bechstein, completely different notes stand out, proving that the problem is not my Yamaha P-90 keyboard. B5 and C5 are so unbearably loud and bright, this piano is unplayable. I have not played the Bosendorfer much, but both the Bosendorfer and the Bechstein are also much too weak in the bass. I have proved with 100% certainty by using octave shift that all the problem notes are in Akoustik Piano and not on the keyboard.
I have tried everything to make the bass stronger: I have set the dynamic range to+3, the velocity curve to +3, and the sensitivity of the keyboard to "soft", which has the effect of making everything louder. All of this helps but the bass is still considerably weaker than my Baldwin or the Yamaha, and in the process the midrange becomes extremely loud and bright. Note that I am listening through a NAD 3020 amplifier and Stax electrostatic headphones SR-Lambda (these were $400. 20 years ago and I believe they are very accurate). My computer has a Pentium 4 processor, 3ghz;1gb RAM.
It is extremely frustrating playing Akoustik Piano because as I said the raw sound is extremely good. I liken it to marrying the most beautiful woman in the world and then finding out she doesn't like sex. Perhaps I can eventually learn to play the midrange extremely softly, but I will never be able to make the bass satisfactorily loud, no matter how hard I play the keys.
I dearly hope that Native Instruments will rectify these problems; it seems to me it shouldn't be that hard to change the samples. Note that the dull notes must not be made just louder but also brighter, i.e. with more higher frequencies. If there is any way I can be of assistance, I would love to volunteer my services -- I could provide an analysis of every note on each piano and/or preview any future upgrade. I dare not hope that Native Instruments would ask me, but to have a properly regulated Steinway concert grand -- with the acoustics of the cathedral -- in my own living room would be a dream come true, a dream as yet unfulfilled. However, if I do not hear from Native Instruments in the near future that they will look into this, I intend to post all the negative reviews I can on user review sites on the Internet, and suggest people buy Synthogy Ivory instead. The creator of Ivory is reputed to be a master piano technician and I highly doubt that he would market a product as poorly regulated as Akoustik Piano.
Thank you for considering this,
---
I'm waiting, hoping for a reply, not holding my breath. Maybe if others complain they will do something.

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Hi,

i've never hear such real Steinway D real sound (Europa real Hamburg Steinway D sound)

it's tuned and it sound like a real Steinway D.

(And not like a bad New-york Steinway )

just hear this demos of Concertgrand !

http://www.audiolivepro.com/demos/Kreisleriana-Sinkevych.mp3

Bets,

Olivier

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

well, I also noticed the problems with the bass notes.
They sorely lack dynamics, that is their impact and volume is not proportional with the rest of the keyboard and with real life piano. It's not just a subtle effect. You can't go louder than mf-f even if you play fff.
This alone makes the piano not really playable professionally (I am a classical pianist).
Also, I agree with pagrant about the unevenness of the tone for some notes.
It's a real pity: the sound is otherwise very beautiful... the Concert Grand, that is. The Bechstein and Boesendofer are terrible, especially the last one. But for the CG there's the possibility to make a really great instruments.
So, what would be really NICE now is for NI to RESPOND: are they going to do something about this?

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

My list of bad notes was just for starters. Play f#1 as hard as you can. Then the same with g1. If you can't hear the difference you are deaf - watch the level meter; it goes up a quarter inch farther for f#1. F#1 is almost what a bass note should be. I would still like it brighter, but if they just made the rest of the bass equal to it that would be a huge improvement. G#4 is hopelessly loud - how could they let that by, I cannot understand. The whole mid- range drives me crazy. This refers to the Steinway CG-D. The bass of the others seems even worse, but I haven't played them much.

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Hi,

it can fe fixed by programming. (very easy)
it's the low pass "delete rumble" and LP....

it set to on on Akoustik player.

Please add in the Akousitk player a Keyboard position settings and off/on of main LP (samples are veyr good don't need a low pass" (add a button for the 3 main fileters for each Piano)

Concertgrand samples are versatile and incredible.

Regards,

Olivier

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Thank you for complaining pagrant@bluefrog.com.

Why should I have to be a programmer to fix all of these problems?

I have received little feedback on my complaints and find the support at NI to be so poor that you would have been better off with Synthogy Ivory 1.5. (I switched to Ivory myself and am much happier with it than AP.

They claim they will have a fix for all these problems but who knows when or if it will work?

I should be charging NI for being a beta tester for their prematurely released product.

Olan

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Hi,

you are right !

i've just found the explanation !

the DB value and LP value change for each octave near each G# (in the programming)

nothing to do with samples.

it's the good news.

give me an e-mail to send you a modification and tell me if it's better !

Regards,

Olivier

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

If you're right,this only explains a few of the bad notes. Below f2 the bass falls off a cliff. F6 to a#7 is weak compared to b7 through f8. The whole piano is so uneven - the worst technician in the world would not have left it that bad. I hope, I PRAY, but my confidence in NI to fix it all is not high. Please, NI, PLEASE!!! Prove me wrong.

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

I really can't understand why NI is not informing us in this topic about the problems mentioned for Akoustik Piano. I think it's not so difficult to reply for NI to inform us about the development of update. And all of us including me facing problems about the different dynamic ranges for some key samples which causes some distorted results. These informations should be important for NI. Any response NI? Is it bad to trust your techinical support as long as you still like the product?

earthlinger
Amsterdam-NL

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

I contacted support last week because I could not record in stand alone . They replied in 2 days that there will be an update to fix that soon [I also sent the "Worse than bad..."- no reply to that ]. Exactly what they will fix in that update...? If the the piano is still not playable, then I will probably buy Ivory.

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Phil,

i've sent you a file

Why don't you answer me ?

Regards,

Olivier

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Hey Phil, I am watching this thread with interest. Just to be sure it has nothing to do with your controller, have you tried making a MIDI sequence of notes with velocities all set to 127, to be sure that each note is triggering at the same maximum velocity throughout?

Mark
(potential Akoustic Piano versus potential Ivory owner, still undecided.)

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

OK, there's an easy check I did just to find out whether it's a controller problem. I loaded the fastest velocity split wave files of some of the bass notes into Audition and just listened to them. They are supposed to be hit pretty hard, but actually they sound like they are played somewhere around mf-f. This has nothing to do with volume, eq, etc, but it's about timbre and the impression you receive when you hear it. You can play the wave file louder or softer, it still sounds like the string has not been hit very hard. And that's the fastest velocity. I believe the ff and fff samples, especially in the bass range, are simply not there. With some programming it's possible to improve the dynamics, but it'll never sound like the real thing.
This is a quote from NI description of the Concert Grand D:
"The CG D intonation and regulation were optimized for the lightest playing style (???) [...] This results in wonderfully smooth and perfectly sounding Pianissimo notes". I just don't understand why that's better than the full range, from ppp to fff (even with some limitations, given the fact that in this case we have 9 velocity layers to play with).
Also, just to be sure, I tested the piano with the controller set to a fixed velocity (64 and 110). At the lower velocity the piano is very uniform and smooth, not so at 110. This convinced me that Phil is spot on about the unevenness of this piano.
Again, that's a real pity: the sound has GREAT potential...
NI, any comments????

Enzo
Rome, Italy

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Hi,

Stop !!!!

it has nothing to do with samples

It's come from the programming. The db mapping and cutoff mapping is mapped in a script.

I've fixed a cutoff bug with repeated note and i've made another DB and LP mapping (nothing to do with layers values or samples) it and sent the fix to NI.

Xavier and me, have fixed another little bug's.

I work well for me know with my Mp9000.

I want to share my .nki with user's and improve this great product

I can send the fixed .nki to you , but i need feedback to improve it .

write me at frappier.olivier@wanadoo.fr

Try it and give feedback !

i don't know if a can post the direct link of the .nki here, but i need feedback keys per keys.

(it would be easier !)

I've spent several hours on this (for free ), because i'm i love with the great sound of this Steinway !!!!

great potential and nice sound !

I hope the official update will come very soon !

Regards,

Olivier

http://www.audiolivepro.com

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

olivierbergman,

well man, you must be really in love with this piano!!!
I still think it's a shame that NI seems to ignore us (we, who spend our money in their product). I've been tempted all the time to get rid of my copy and go for the Ivory...the thing is that I'll lose to much money if I sell it further, so NI, please put an official update on the site so we can enjoy our investement!!

Willy

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Hi,

yes, i'm really in love because it's a great product. And the first version is already good.

The next just better.

Regards,

Olivier

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Hi Mark; I think enzo answered you, but I repeat that by using octave shift I have proved that the problem is in the NOTES not the KEYS of my controller. Also, again, the Bechstein has completely different loud/soft notes. B5, c5 are much too loud on it making it unplayable. Enzo - the piano was NOT optimized for the lightest playing style. There is absolutely nothing intentional about the way the bass falls off a cliff - albeit UNEVENLY- below f2. The ONLY explanation is that NI DID NOT CARE HOW IT SOUNDED!!!!!!!!!!!! Compare a6, a#6 with g#5 and b6. The former need heavy playing style, the latter a light one. I could adapt to one or the other but not BOTH in the same half octave. Olivier, if you are right about g# at every octave that would be great, but tell me, does that explain why g#1 is very weak, g#2 and g#3 almost OK, g#4 MUCH too loud, and g#5,g#6 are OK?
I swear , this piano is more uneven than any "real" piano ever gets even if it's never regulated. To my mind, the only explanation is that the person working with the samples DID NOT CARE HOW IT SOUNDED!!!!

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Get real. If you've worked with samples you know that there is just too much listening that you have to do to not care about how things sound. The developer might have been overwhelmed or may have had to meet a deadline (my guess), but not caring is not likely.

Ernie

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

Again,

i don't speak about keys, or notes, but about db and LP level for each programmed keys. (nothing to do with a controller)

you complain, complain....

but just write me at frappier.olivier@wanadoo.fr

and i will send you another mapping to test.

I can map the Concertgrand like the Bechstein if you want !!!

I'm working on a script where you can tweak each layers keys.

Regards

Olivier

 

Re: Akoustic Piano: Worse than bad sex?

OK, Ernie, then you explain to me why the mid-range dominates, especially g4#, g4,etc., and the bass is so weak. I know zero of how they put the samples together, but to quote someone who e-mailed me independently; "It seems NI did not have a single sophisticatad pianist there when this piano was created." He took it back and got his money back -lucky him. But Olivier, I will get in touch with you soon. If you have solved the above problems, I will bow in deepest gratitude. As I've said ,this could be a wonderful piano.