Akoustic Piano: Feels like the first time?

Rifflestack,

That's a nice track, by the way, but as you warned, the piano is buried pretty deep in the mix.

In any case, saying that one piano sounds so much better than another isn't just a measure of the quality of the one piano -- it's also very much a matter of taste. The problems people have been concerned with here aren't the sound of the piano anyway -- they've mostly involved voicing and some specific screwed-up samples or mappings. Even the comparatively stripped-down August Foerster piano in the Kontakt library sounds wonderful, if that's the kind of piano you are looking for, and if the absolute full potential of piano expression isn't required for the piece you're tracking it in.

I can readily understand why a classical pianist could be horrified by inconsistent voicing or unrealistic pedal behavior, but I can also understand why a jazz pianist might prefer any number of pianos over the one a classical player might insist upon. Fitting into the mix might be more important than sounding indistinguishable from a specific real-world instrument. Heck, in some musical contexts, a Fender Rhodes sounds "better" than a real piano, but that doesn't make it a better piano. (It doesn't even make it a piano!)

 

Who's down for a Class Action? This is crap...I'm about to breakdown and buy Ivory or some other...

False advertisement...crappy/no support...Why did they sell their Beta version? I want my money back...I've waited long enough for the stupid "mystical" update...

 

Rather than a class action, maybe we can solicit donations from charitable organizations to hire NI a couple more programmers.

 

I already donated to the cause by buying the product.

Ernie

 

Update @ beta stage?

Hi folks,

Do any of you guys contributing to the update know about it entering beta stage? :

http://www.native-instruments.com/site/forum_us/showthread.php?p=218597#post218597

Thanks,

Jason

 

Hi maybe I have a solution,

we all paid £220 to Native Instruments for the privilage of being their beta testers (of A.P.)
So, we are already here and pissed off waiting for this update.
O.K. we also know that the supposed update has been released in beta to certain people
so
why not make the beta update available to all of us as a download, just to keep us all off your back.

1) it will give us something to do and stop us complaining here and
2) me might be able to help

I'm sure this would be a great idea, as long as there really is a version 1.1 to test!
j

 

I just purchased Ivory...Goodbye Native Instruments...I cannot believe I paid you to be a beta tester...WHACK*!*!

Boo for you....

 

I knew you were going to say that...

But NI looks like a very familiar situation of undercapitalization, developers stretched too thin, etc. So although charity donations are (admittedly) a stupid idea, some additional VC might actually help.

 

Re: Update @ beta stage?

Hello all,

I think it is a good suggestion (as posted earlier by someone else), that NI should involve (if they want to do so ..) all the people who suffered from important techical insuffiency or having a very critical 'ear' in the beta testing of the new, long awaited, version ....
Kind regards
Luc
BE

 

So I bought AP last fall and have been using it pretty regularly without too much hiccup. I have no use for the built-in recorder, since I mainly use it as a VST. I agree that it sucks that the recorder doesn't work right, and it is not cool for the product to be shipped unfinished. Etc etc. The point of this post is not to add insult to injury on technical issues such as that.

I would like to say that I have been enormously pleased with AP. I'm a music graduate, studied piano at a coveted school, and have performed all over the US and in some foreign countries, too. I've played real Steinways and Bechsteins in concert hall settings and am presently making a living as a professional pianist, composer, and music instructor. Granted, I haven't used Ivory (I used to use the Grand), but I don't feel I have any need to. I've used AP in many mixes and have never been let down. We shouldn't forget the blessings that AP can bring, even though we can all agree that the product was not at its peak potential when it was released.

My main reason for posting, though, is that I've grown increasingly dismayed as I've read more and more of these posts, and other forums about AP, which I found when Googling for more information about AP. It seems that so many people -- not just posters on this thread -- want AP to replace a true acoustic piano in their studio setup. People complain that they cannot play Chopin or Liszt on AP because of problems with layering or the velocity curves or the sample volumes not lining up properly to create natural expression. People complain that they can't use AP as a standalone performance piano because it isn't authentic enough. People complain that even with a weighted controller, AP just doesn't cut it in terms of feel.

I'm sorry... what?

Yeah, you can't play Chopin on AP. You can't use it live. AP doesn't feel real. You know why? Because there will never, ever, never never never be a true software replacement for a real piano. Never. Stop hoping for one.

A real piano has infinite sonic possibilities, due to the innumerable ways of striking a note, the minute variances in construction between every piano, technical imperfections of the player that can lead to unique styles, etc. The list goes on and on. Basically, to recreate a piano with software, you'd have to create code that could anticipate and calculate *infinite* amounts of variables. And then compensate every millisecond of playing time. The software would need to recreate the effects of weather on the wood that made the piano, the angle and level at which a pedal was pressed, the physical method by which a key was struck. This is impossible. At least, given the computers we have available on the market today. Rephrased: it's impossible for the forseeable future.

This is NOT to say that NI should be forgiven for releasing a product with several flaws. This IS to say, however, that when judging a virtual piano, you need to take the proper standpoint. Don't use it as a studio replacement for a real piano, only use it when in a pinch. Don't use it live, because you won't get good results. And for the love of all that is holy, please don't EVER use it to play "classical" music, regardless of the time period it was composed. Yes, there has been a natural evolution of pianos, and yes, the pianos that Beethoven composed on are very different than the pianos of today. But that does not mean that software pianos are the next evolutionary stage of pianos and that we should all expect to perform Chopin scherzos on computers in the future. Show me the evolutionary link between strings/hammers and computer code.

So lighten up a little bit. You spent $300USD on a product that wasn't what you expected. Big freaking deal. NI is working on a project that clearly causes them a lot of strife, and every other software company that makes virtual pianos is constantly climbing uphill. I agree with a previous poster and suggest that we just let these people do their job and realize what we're essentially dealing with here -- a cheap imitation of a timeless instrument, that, if we were to actually buy one ourselves, would cost more than most luxury cars on the market. $300 is barely anything to cry about.

 

point WELL taken! if you play piano as balanced as you write responses to forum dwealers, I'd like to hear you play. nice one! I ended up not purchasing the program cause in general I don't like the way NI condescends as a business to its customers (in general), but I do so appreciate your thoughful response and I do feel like it give a more accurate feeling about the program! thank you!

 

B.H.KIM

If I send you my copy of this "beautyful" programm, do I get the price I paid for it from you ?

*I* have to work hard for my money. And I have lost this money effectively.
NI seems *not* to work for their money. Worse, I had to buy a new DVD drive too, because the faulty AP DVDs ruined my brand new drive.

 

B.H.KIM

Excuse me if I find this a pretty useless debate. Some years ago people laughed about the idea that a machine would ever be able to beat a human chess player... Nowadays not one out of a million would dare a match against a 50€ chess program from the grocery store next door. To claim that an electronic simulation will never be able to reasonably replace a genuine piano is your personal belief, not more and not less, and I personally don't share it. I likewise do not like the thought that e-pianos might be the next "evolutionary step" but I fear they might be.

Apart from that what I want is maybe not a 100% reproduction, but a decent sounding machine which I'd like to play and hear.... in other words, what NI is promising so proudly. But unfortunately I find the product far behind the promises. While this may be to an extent a matter of personal taste, I feel that AP fails some very objective quality criteria with flying banners.

And, yes, I DO want to play classical music - can you find any warning from NI not to use AP for classical music ? I would not complain had they warned me "please use only for background melodies in jazz arrangements". But instead what they claim is that AP emulates the true thing to a degree not known before - and this is clearly a lie. I find it difficult to excuse this.

Regards
Martin

 

Hi,
loads of nice debate here, but I just want a product that works, I'm not supid enough to think that it will sound or play like a real grand, but just a product that works!

 

I definitely see your points. I'm the last person to scoff at Pixar and the first person to buy the DVD for The Incredibles. Hell, I was a computer science double-major with music for a couple years in college and have an enormous respect for advancements. I would argue, however, that playing chess is a far cry from recreating a musical instrument. While a player has a limited number of moves per turn, from which to calculate trees of the next several moves, a piano is entirely unpredictable because there is no clear set of possibilities. And I didn't say a computer could NEVER recreate a piano. But our computer setups at present certainly can't.

And of course NI isn't going to place limitations on their advertisements. Would you buy a VW Jetta if the ad said: "Not good if you want to use it for the movement of large storage boxes, not good if you want to impress your friends with your fanciness of your car, not good if you like driving around with a lot of friends" etc? You'd certainly think twice. So they're going to advertise their product to the best of their ability. And to some, maybe AP really does "emulate the true thing to a degree not known before." It's pretty subjective. Lies in advertisements aren't a new thing. But I think it's helpful when buying something like a virtual piano to know the inherent limitations of the product.

But I do understand where you are coming from, and I check back to this board more often than I probably should just to see if there's a post on when the update will be available.

 

I'm not defending the faulty product at all, and wasn't saying that it doesn't suck for the people who got screwed by the product. Clearly NI screwed up. I got lucky and got non-defective DVDs. I was mainly talking about virtual pianos in general. I tried to make that clear, but message forums aren't always the best way to get something across.

 

I do think that Acoustic Piano sounds very good and real-like.

The problem is that the software (which is the paradigm we are in) is not as good as it should be (some will say could be, I am not one of them).

I am running this software and Electric Piano on a AMD dualcore 4400 with 2 gigabites of memory.

But still I get cracks and pops, with both products. (EP has gotten a lot better with the update, it should be said). I have tweaked my machine to run music software - the software is running on a didicated windows partition (no other programs running besides music software).

So the only reason the programs are not running flawless is the programming and that is something that N.I. should have taken care off, instead of playing catch up now.

The velocity issue that this product came with is un-acceptable.

I can however get good sounding results by using a low velocity curve on my midi keyboard. But it would be nice to have the whole dynamic curve available.

I don't think this is a utopic wish/demand!

Oh, and take a look in some of the other forums. What would you say - are N.I. taking care of their code or are they being perhaps a bit too careless, leaving their users (=buyers) as beta testers?

A company such as Propellerheads is a company that NI could learn from. Solid code, good support!

 

B. H. Kim:
you are right. Sorry, but I am totally pissed of at the time.....

 

Hi all,

well - reading all these threads about problems with NI products, (KORE, AP, Cracks with EP even on high-end hardware), I'm really very hesitant to make an purchase.

But I would like to give deep respect to NI for running this forum and NOT censoring it. People! You do not even have the slightest clue what f*cking f*scist mafiosi the people down at korgforums.com are. Try to go there and tell that the OASYS is an overpriced piece of *just-software-synthesizer*. They ban you no questions asked.

Therefore actually running this forum - with its open, crude and often undiplomatic form telling the "bare truth" about NI products - gives me more confidence in them, because it suggests, NI takes issues seriously and is not afraid to take public criticism.

Again, try that with Korg, you probably wouldn't believe their reactions.

To NI: Keep trying. Keep trying hard. Even if you might hear, that e.g. "nothing compares to Reactor 5" well: keep trying harder. Same rules apply if you hear "AP is s*it". This is software business and as such the most important factor is Evolution.


Richard

 

I have a slightly different perspective.
To me, NI is still a small company, and there is still no real "marketing department", with assistants, etc., that has decided that these forum are somewhat important.
For them, it's a very inexpensive "feature" to add to the website, and they dont really care about it (in my opinion). I dont think its a conscious choice.
If they DID really care, if they DID really have some kind "customer loyalty" department, be sure that somebody from NI would spend TEN (im saying ten, that would be enough) minutes every two days in giving a regular update.
Im really shocked about seeing all this people totally left alone with their problems caused by NI greed, without a single decent word.
The final joke to me is that NI is offering an expensive "komplete care" program...thats really something surreal.
This company might have good ideas and programmers, but 50% of its management should be fired.