AP Cuts Out

Hi. New user of Akoustik Piano and I'm having some problems. I use an Ensoniq KS-32 as my controller, and a Midisport 2x4 midi interface. This setup works fine with Garage Band on my Imac G5 1.8 Ghz machine.

With Akoustik Piano I can play 15 to 30 notes and then the sound completely cuts out. I have to switch my KS-32 off, then on, and then can play another 15 to 30 notes before the same thing happens. I have no other programs running on my Mac.

Any ideas???

Love the sound by the way.

Kevin

 

Hi Kevin,

I doubt that the KS-32 is not the problem. have you tried to follow the tips on the sheet that we added to the AP box?

There are several good hints to reduce CPU and hard disk streaming load. I am copying the same section from the Readme below.


Best,
Markus

//

- A Voices control was added to the header. In combination with
the ECO mode, this allows you to optimize performance on computers
with minimum requirements. Please note that this is the number of
keys that can be played at the same time - including sustain pedal.
AKOUSTIK PIANO will play much more voices under the hood since e.g.
special effects like sustain resonance trigger more samples.

If you encounter any problems with crackles please try the
following steps in this order.

* Ensure that you are using a high quality soundcard with
an Asio driver (on Windows XP). Increase the latency of your sound
card in the Audio/MIDI setup dialog to a value that still lets you
play the pianos with a nice feel (10ms - 15ms).

* If you still hear crackles, check if the CPU overload
button flashes red ("!"). In this case, press the button to
reset the sound engine and click the ECO button. This will switch
from convolution reverb to conventional reverbs. Alternatively,
you can deselect all rooms by clicking on the currently selected
room.

* Any further crackles are disk related. Make sure that
you are using the 16 bit version instead of the 24 bit version of
the library. If you are using a laptop, try putting the library on
an external hard disk with USB 2 or FireWire interface.

* Reduce the number of voices in the "Voices" drop down.

* Set the volume of the Sustain Resonance to 0 in the
Editor.

 

I've had it cut out when I hold the sustain pedal down. Did it the other day at a gig ... came back when I took foot and hands off for a split second. Outside shot - make sure the pedal polarity is right.

Ernie

 

Hi all,

this is also the only case that we know. caused by extreme DFD hit due to the simultanious release of all notes.

so far we have not been able to find a better DFD algorithm to reduce the bottleneck. we included the voices drop-down to at least restrict the amount of voices. we also put samples straight into RAM where possible.


Best,
Markus

 

I must be missing something. Olivier increases the number of voices being used and max voices selectable in the drop down menu via his latest resonance nki BUT from what I recall there were FEWER dropouts.

How can that occur if the problem is at the voice (DFD) level?

Ernie

 

Got AP 2 days ago and am having trouble with dropouts, very annoying. How does AP process data, to understand a possible fix? Are dropouts based on cpu, disk, soundcard, or ram? This is what I use:

AP on dedicated Maxtor 40gb ATA100, 7200 rpm, defragmented, on secondary channel, one drive on cable, 85% free space. Everything else on other disk, primary channel, with 90% free space on drive. No system restore active, file indexing service turned off, no recycle bin function. All other drives are external.

M-Audio revolution with ASIO, possibly no DSP, latency set at 23ms, or 1280 samples, up from the 512 default.

Pentium III tualatin 1.2ghz.

512mb pc 133 ram, system can do 1gb.

Yamaha P-80 connected to pc via serial cable "To-Host", baud 57800 with hardware flow control (works good).

CPU has never overloaded. It operates in the 70-95% load range, and sound has never clipped. I'm really not interested in degrading AP functions, the 16 bit version is installed, would rather use the 24bit, no performance improvment with 16bit but it seems to be of less sound quaility.

With all of the above, what is the one thing to do to take care of this dropout problem without changing the software features. I'm thinking of maxing the ram, or an EMU soundcard with DSP, or a serial drive pci card.

 

Unless you really want to add hardware for other reasons I'd hang in there for the update.

Ernie

 

Hello Cimmy,

What about one or other process that normally runs in the background but that accidently pops-up with a window containing e.g an error message? I once experienced such a complete cut-off (with AP as a VST plugin in Cubase SX3) while a problem of my wireless network stick (loosing connection) popped up and another time with a Windows XP Update message (thank you Bill) popping up
Kind regards
Luc
BE

 

Hi Syner,

Thanks for the tip. There are no error messages and processes are kept low, although xp still has way too many services running and it's not easy to figure out which ones are not needed. I'm trying to find out which piece of hardware would do the most for dropouts. I was seeing what AP could do by playing high note scales and at the same time playing bass notes on full sustain without pedal (sound all the time), the bass notes drop out sometimes using the catherdral room and jumping octives. The ram available is usually around 70-180mb free when playing. Do you know if a soundcard DSP is active with AP or is the DSP for general MIDI only? AP seems to be doing ok with the ram, 512mb, so a sound card with DSP might do the trick, the M-Audio card does not have DSP and now the ASIO is making noise even at 23ms. Used a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz soundcard with DSP first and that seems to be better than the M-Audio, plus it uses far less processing time, and it does not have ASIO. There is no latency using MIDI cable. It even sounds better.

 

Hi Ernie and Syner,

Put the old discontinued sound card Turtle Beach back in and made a few changes in how the card handles DSP and it works good, no noise, or drop outs anymore. It is a little slower than ASIO using Direct Sound at 12ms on midi cable connected to card, but it's ok. It was tested the same way as before and a little more. So the hardware question is for sure a soundcard with DSP. EMU has a good one, low cost at some stores. Thanks for your advice.

 

I doubt it. Unless the DSP is common to all soundcards i.e. part of the Windows API, it's not likely NI would code for it.

I'd recommend getting confirmation from NI before I purchase the card.

Be aware that if you should ever choose to use the "other" sampler, Emu hardware doesn't support GSIF.

Ernie

 

Hi all,

I also doubt that the DSP will help since we are doing everything generic i.e. "native" without additional hardware.

the AP 1.1 update will allow you to select more voices but the basic problem will remain the same: if your system is not able to cope with the additional voices you will still have drop-outs.

further performance improvements will have to wait for the upcoming Kontakt update and a following AP update (see Kontakt forum).

if I get the time and enough RAM, I will try to load a whole piano into RAM and see if I still get drop-outs. that would clarify our questions below re DFD as the main problem.


Best,
Markus

 

Hello Cimmay,

As far as I know, my soundcard (an 'older fashioned Terratec EWS88MT) has no DSP on board ...
It seems so difficult to put on or other influencing parameter as the most signifant one ... They all seem to work together as in a algebraic formula ....
But regarding the processes that may gain priority in Windows (XP), I have a question for Markus. Isn't it possible to build in a function in AP, that - when enabled - elimanates all non essential windows processes and non essential audio processes to access Ram, HD, CPU .....
Kind regards
Luc
BE
------------------------------------------------

 

Markus,
will you please have an eye on my question towards you in my reply to Cimmay?
Kind regards,
Luc
BE
--------------

 

Oh yeah, that's what every programmer would want responsibility for ...

There aren't enough support specialists in the world to handle the calls NI would get.

FYI: There are several sites that list DAW tweaks. Just enter "xp daw tweaks" into Google (without the quotes, of course) and they should come up. One tweak you DON'T want to do is to turn off all services, use the computer for awhile, and then just enable the ones that Windows enables automatically. One site suggests this. Trust me, it's not a good idea. Some services are not started automatically just because they are needed. You'll be chasing down cryptic descriptions for a few hours trying to figure out why various pieces of software don't work

Ernie

 

Hi all,

we talked a little about process priorities during the last weeks. however, in general it is really not a good idea to set the whole AP process to top priority or change other processes.

could really destabilize your system like Ernie already mentioned.

however, I did find out that the audio thread (not the GUI thread) of AP already runs with a higher than normal priority.


Best,
Markus

 

Hi All,

Put AP through another round of investigation and it has a few dropouts while using the Rooms only. As dry sound there are none. I like the dry sound on the 4 pianos better, the character comes through strong. Processing time is cut in half by not using the Rooms too, as dry sound the pianos averaged 50% cpu load with 83mb ram available. The software is all default using the 16 bit sound version. If the 24 bit version can be used without Room functions I'd be very happy with that. The only trouble is card noise once in a while on both M-Audio and Turtle Beach, the TB card when sold retail ran around $25. The drives are ATA133 on DMA mode 5. In an external enclosure of ATA100 they still performed better than Mode 5, so I suppose they are currently doing better than ATA100 on the MB. (by the way, Maxtor corp. has been bought by Seagate, 100% by summer). Still interested in the EMU 0404 card, the M-Audio one is for home theater and is a big cpu hog (false advertising). I'm sticking with dry sound all the time since it sounds so much better and may give the 24 bit version another try. The external recorder and EMU, not NI, can add extra effects off-line if needed. AP turned out excellent as version 1, look forward to the exciting updates when ready. It was also a great surprise when AP was released.

 

Hi Cimmay,

I am happy to hear that things work out for you! good point on the rooms using CPU - this is indeed a possible source for hiccups. We included the ECO button to use an alternative reverb instead of convolution but even this draws CPU.

maybe other users can recommend good sound cards?


Best,
Markus

 

First of all, I'm certain it won't be the soundcards themselves, but rather the drivers that will make the difference.

Secondly, what I'd like to find out is whether the dropout problem is a disk bandwidth problem or a CPU problem. It's implied that it's CPU but Markus has tied it to DFD. I would expect DFD to be more sensitive to disk bandwidth issues. With DMA enabled the CPU should not be impacted.

I'm also curious about why it turns into silence. Most keyboards have polyphony issues, they just don't go dead quiet when they are overloaded.

Finally, based on the experiences I have read I think that a 1.2 ghz P3 is on the lean side for any sample based instrument. And based on my experience with Sonar I'd say anything over about 80% is overload.

Side comment: Forte' (performance VST host) gives better performance if you turn the cpu meter off. Go figgur.

Ernie

 

Hello all,

I got the impression that this problem is only related to Windows (XP), am I wrong? How do Mac users feel about AP?
Kind regards
Luc
BE