Ap1.1 Concert Grand Phil's

For background refer to the thread "Feels like the First Time".

Back in December Markus set me up with the version of Kontakt2 and gave me all the help I needed to create my own preset. The following are the main ways in which my preset differs from the other concert grands, created by Lorenz and a tuner.

1. I made the bass notes as brilliant as a real piano by deleting the softest sample, moving all the other samples down one position, and stretching the loudest sample over two sample zones. In addition I used high pass filters to remove the remaining excessive boominess.

2. Early on I realized there were many notes slightly to moderately out of tune (i.e. Out of tune with themselves, most of the piano has either two or three strings per note. I learned to tune myself many years ago after being dissatisfied with professional tuners). I informed NI of this -- Lorenz and a tuner replaced a few of these by tuning adjacent notes up one semitone. I replaced about 20 notes, often having a stretch a note as many as four semitones, which then necessitated very difficult adjustment of the timbre using up to even four or five different filters.


3. After I evened out the timbre and volume of all the notes [using filters on 2/3ds of the notes], and the balance of the different sections of the entire piano, I realized that the bass notes in the section from F1 to D#2 had a quite harsh and unpleasant sound, very unlike the beautiful tones on my best CDs. I do not know why this is. After a huge amount of experimentation, trial and error, I ended up using E1 tuned up to A1, and G1 for A#1, B1, C2, and E2 for C#2, D2, and D#2. I can only say that the end result is less bad than the original.

I have spent an immense amount of time on this, and I think the end result is an immense improvement. Unfortunately, I am not completely satisfied, especially with the bass. E1 unfortunately is slightly out of tune, and this becomes more noticeable as it’s stretched higher up the keyboard.

I have since had the opportunity to try Ivory. While I like the sound of individual notes slightly better than AP, especially in the bass, it suffers from the same original problems as AP-- very uneven timber, out of tune notes, and a weak boomy bass. While I would probably choose Ivory over the original AP, I would definitely choose my own preset over Ivory as it is now (Ivory unfortunately cannot be imported into K2.)

Finally, it would seem that no one at either NI or Synthogy, or the vast majority of users have any idea of what the bass of a piano should sound like. I’m not claiming I have it perfect - I may adjust it some - but I guarantee I have it much closer than any of the other presets. [See “Feels”] Anyone who doubts this should go to the nearest piano store and try any reasonably new piano.
Sometime soon I may make available a slightly improved version of my preset.

 

Phil,

Your concert grand preset is very beautiful. Both you and Olivier did a great job. Thanks for your work!

Do you think you could post a how-to? I would be interested in doing some tweaking myself, and I bet others would as well. Do you need to have a copy of Kontakt 2 to do this? I have Kompakt. Would that be sufficient?

In particular I would like to make the top register a little softer and a little less bright.

Thanks again,

-Glen

PS. And yes, the clever hackers at NI did some pretty nice work too!

 

Phil, congratulation and many thanks for all the hours you spent to do this new preset. It has dramatically improved. It really is a bigger pleasure to play now. It's a huge step forward toward a great virtual instrument inspired by the authentic material source.

So far, I agree with the previous post, that the highest 1 1/2 octaves should be slightly softer, slightly less brilliant. Once I have spent more time with your preset I will send you more feedback, but once again: thanks and congratulation.

The second suggestion that I have - and this is rather for Olivier Frappier- is the following: Could you also offer a overtone version of Phil's preset. Since I guess that I will always play with his preset, I would not like to change the sound quality when I play some contemporary literature with overtone. I simply would like to switch to another preset, something like "Phil's timbre with Olivier's overtones".

Third suggestion goes to NI's engineers: I'm still missing a sostenuto pedal which does more than a simple, linear decrease in volume. It should also change the timbre, due to the fact that the hammer only hits one (sometimes two), but not three cords. The fact that not all midi-keyboards allow for 2 or 3 pedals should not be a reason for NI to neglect this aspect. A really good virtual sostenuto in AP should rather be a message to keyboard manufacturers (and to buyers of keyboards!) to make it a default accessory.

Aria

 

Why not ?

but i prefer close "distance" than far "distance" in this preset, to hear all harmonics in samples.

i prefer close because it's like my real grand Schimmel when i play it !

i will send such preset to NI



do you speak about sostenuto pedal (cont 66) or una corda pedal (cont 67) ?

only "una corda" (controller 67 )( 2 strings instead of 3 when keyboard move to the right) )should change the timbre ?

In my overtone preset , the timbre change with una corda in others too.

I will check tomorrow.

should i choose a higher value for the timbre ?

Regards,

Olivier

 

Olivier,

Your preset is equally beautiful! Many thanks.

-Glen

 

Hi all,

thanks indeed to Phil and Olivier for spending 100s of hours on their presets!

Phil, it would be great if you could share your process and experience with the users who want to try customizing their patches with Kontakt 2.1!

only Kontakt 2.1 will work, Kompakt still uses the Kontakt 1.5x engine. if you do have Kompakt already, you can use the great Kontakt crossgrade offer.

http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=shopdetail_us&prid=532


Best,
Markus

 

It's great if you sent such preset to NI. Yours, too, is great. It's good to have different options for overtone-capable presets.

I meant una corda, not sostenuto (sorry for the confusion). I think, that the change in timbre when using una corda is maybe not enough perceivable. But let me have a more detailled look at your preset and I get back to you.

Thanks again. Your overtone implementation is really a great improvement.

Aria

 

Hi Glen and Aria;
I'm glad you like the preset. Actually, I was expecting that people would think the bass was too strong, but if no one says anything I will leave it as is. I cannot tell you how many times I went back and forth with the intensity of the treble [all of the piano for that matter]. Yes, you need K2. If you have that its an easy matter to lower the volume of every note 1/2 -2db, and to put in a high pass filter on every note,too, adjusting it to what you think is right. But why don't you let me do it. NI will release more presets soon - and one will combine mine and Olivier's.

Maybe I will just put in HP filters because that lowers the volume too.

Any more comments before I start changing it?

 

Hi Phil,

Just to say that it was a pleasure to add overtones to your preset.

I've listened again , and i love it with near position and i will play it each day !

I hear the timbre of a good Steinway. You choose the right filters



all going well and now my overtones script is polyphonic.

So, no doubt phil's + overtones by Olivier will be in the next
1.11 update.



More i work with this product , more i love it.

And now, i love your preset !

You know , my dream is to have a Steinway B at home, i've only a Grand Piano Schimmel at home.

Now, i've a real Steinway D.

I don't say that it's perfect or like the real, but it's a very good simulation, and sometimes i've more pleasure to play the :
"AKP NI Phil's / Olivier / Lorenz / Markus and others... -Steinway D -" (lol)
than My Grand Schimmel 1m72 !

Regards,

Olivier

 

Thanks Olivier; I want to add to my previous post: I have spent 30 years tone regulating [and tuning] my Baldwin 5'8" grand. I gave up on tuners after my first "professional" tuning and learned myself. I applied all that experience to AP. While I can try to explain WHAT I did to AP, the HOW, i.e. extremely careful, close listening - going over and over and over sections and notes- is really not transmittable. There is a huge amount of trial and error involved. Determining whether the timbre or the volume is off can be VERY challenging. Also , I know I have a very fine ear [I'm not bragging-often I'm tormented by it!]- that's why I complained so much in the first place!!!

I did this for myself. I'm glad others can appreciate it. And every one should be thankful to Markus for letting and helping me do it.

 

Phil,

If you could do the modifications, that would be ideal.

To my ear, the bass is fine, and the middle registers are stunningly beautiful. The note that starts to jump a bit for me is B6 (with middle C labeled C4).

The 13 treble notes above B6 are also a little too loud and a little too bright. Is it possible to modify just those 14 notes? I wouldn't want you to change anything else!!!!!!!!

Other users should definitely add their comments here before you go to the trouble of doing additional work.

Thanks again,

-Glen

PS: The keyboard I am using is an MP9000 which has very even dynamics with other sound modules, so that is probably not the issue.

 

Hi Glen; Yes its easy to do just the 14 notes [I don't play anything later than Schubert whose piano stopped at high F so I didn't concentrate on the notes above too much] . Btw, I meant LOW pass filters.
Do you use it with bass at soft? And Cathedral reverb? The bass seems stronger at Concert Hall, that's why I was thinking of making it softer. I will be doing this soon, so quick feedback will be good.
I'm confused which notes you mean. You mean the top 14 notes on the piano, or the octave below that? Aria meant the top 1 1/2 . Middle c is C3 , top C is C7. Low A is A-1.

 

Yes, I mean the top 14 notes. And yes I've been using the bass set to soft, so if you want to make the default bass softer, people could always bump it back up to medium. Doing that sounds like it would add some additional flexiblity.

Thanks again,

-Glen

 

Phil

Thanks very much for your ConcertGrand Preset, which I find significantly improved over the original. I am particularly grateful you got me rid of the stupid sound of (mainly) C3, which in the original sounds like a quacking duck and makes the piano virtually unusable. You don't seem to mention this explicitly but clearly you replaced C3 (3rd C from the left) and adjacent notes.

Apart from that, I agree with Glen that the top notes progressively need some adjustment to the softer side, and that the bass in "soft" setting could be a little bit softer as well.

On the other hand, I find the "middle right hand" notes between E4 or F4 and C6 or so too soft and think these could do with more brilliance. It's the same in the original samples so I'm not sure if there's way around it. Sounds to me as if no ff samples had been taken - clearly the true ConcertGrand exhibits more metallic "presence" in the middle region when hammered. This is frustrating for instance when I play the beginning of Schumanns Kreisleriana and cannot get a proper crescendo - instead, when climbing up with the right hand, the notes somehow "vanish", becoming duller and less distinct, regardless how I hammer the keys, until I reach the the upper octaves, which are then too loud (while neither very brillant).

Another issue I noted is that eb3 has an unpleasant high frequency harmonic or resonance when played with damper pedal depressed. Sounds pretty metallic and clearly sticks out over the other notes. It is most offending in setting "lid open" and "distance close". The effect is present in the original samples as well, but less pronounced. I guess it may have been amplified by the filters you applied. It can be suppressed by a (approx.) 7kHz notch filter.

Best Regards
Martin

 

Martin, you are a connoisseur! I never knew if anyone else would appreciate all my work. You have no idea the work it took to get rid of the "quacking duck" and its neighbors. But it's not c3, but c2 [lowest 3 notes: a-1, a#-1,b-1, then c0. Middle c is c3]. Refer back to my first post and read CAREFULLY.

A new update will be out in a few days. The treble and bass are softer, but note that the balance between sections seems to vary depending on the reverb. I also smoothed out the middle 2 octaves. esp. making c3-f3 softer. The combined effect should be to make the middle right hand louder. Let me know what you think then. You can also try playing w/+1 or +2 dynamic. My Yamaha P-90 has a soft, medium and hard touch - the soft accesses the harder, more brilliant samples, and that's what I use most of the time. You could also use +1 velocity.

You say eb3...? You mean e3 to b3 [i.e. e2 to b2]? The worst note there for me is d2[which is actually e2 tuned down]. I think there's a vibration in the real piano that causes that - I have spent dozens of hours on my Baldwin trying to get rid of such noises [it CAN be done]. On AP I have even tried replacing the sustain samples w/ the ones from the Bechstein, which helps. But Olivier has worked on the sustain making it more realistic and it seems the noise you refer to is better in the coming version. Again, let me know. I have replaced other notes that I heard jangling. Frankly, I have issues with all the samples.

 

Phil

I understand you start counting the lowest octave beginning with C as zero; everything below is indexed minus one. I counted differently but let's agree to your terminology.

Yes, I meant C2 with the "duck", and then your first post makes sense ("F1 to C2 harsh and unpleasant").

As regards the middle range, the weakest notes seem to be F3 ... C#4. I think we have two issues here:
a) the notes have a lower volume than others
b) and the sound does not respond to hard playing - should have more metallic touch

Playing a scale up and down from C3...C5 makes a) quite obvious. Maybe I should get myself higher quality headphones to doublecheck it, but I think the effect is real. Yes, clearly it depends on the reverb/sustain, and the distance settings. I prefer to play without or minimum reverb only.

My Roland 2700 has three grades of touch as well but setting it to "hard" does not help much, because this affects all notes equally. Same for the velocity setting in AP. Plus, setting all to "hard" and +2 velocity takes out most of the dynamics of playing, compressing it all to a range somewhere between mf and ff. Not very useful.

As to point b): When selecting the "hard" settings throughout, I note that I can actually get adequate or nearly adequate samples ... I just can't bring them to live in a normal setting which allows me to play other notes as well without having them sound like a harpsichord.
To a certain extent, this may have to do with my keyboard, which makes it difficult to generate midi velocity messages above 110 without using a hammer. The Steinberg Grand2 allows to adjust the velocity curve not just in grades -3 ... +3 but to edit the curve point by point. This is extremely useful e.g. to transform the limited velocity range of the keyboard, say 030 ... 110 to the full range 0..128. Maybe such a midi transformation is possible with cubase, using AP as plug-in, but I didn't try yet.

As to the high frequency jangling: With eb I meant e flat... d#2 in your counting. As regards these ringing noises, d#2 and d2 are the worst to me. I recorded the notes and ran a Fourier anaysis, which shows distinct peaks around 7kHz. I have not yet checked the samples directly, it might well be possible to remove these artefacts directly in the sustain samples by a clever filter.
You mention the work on your Baldwin, and actually I know such noises from real pianos as well, but I wonder why Native did not try to fix this before taking the samples. Not all artefacts of a true grand are worth to be preserved.

Anyway, I greatly appreciate the work you put into all this. I would have started tinkering myself but without owing Kontakt this is pretty pointless. Look forward to your next version.

A final note: The sample material itself is generally rated quite good in this forum. However, apart from the issues discussed before, my general impression is that of a touch of "nasalness" throughout. All AP pianos sound slightly nasal to me, as if squeezed through a box, and I did not manage to improve this with the equalizer. In the meantime, I kind of got used to it but when I return to the Steinberg Grand2, it sounds more "open" to me. Nobody seems to share this view so maybe it is rather personal taste, my headphones, or just what I got used to. What is your feeling about it ?

Best regards
Martin

 

Glen, send me an email.

 

Martin,

MidiSolutions.com makes a little box called the Velocity Converter that you can put between your keyboard and your sound module, or in the case of AP, your PC.

With it you can map the range of velocities your keyboard generates onto the full 0-127 range. It comes with a bunch of built-in velocity curves, but it also has software that you can use to draw your own curve. I used to own one of these, but no longer have it.

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm

Regards,
Glen

PS. I'm looking forward to trying the new release today! So far I've had some difficulty with the download, getting only a partial file.

 

This may be a stupid question, but where can you download this preset for Kontakt? It sounds like some people did a lot of good number crunching and I'd love to hear their work. Just recieved AP today in the mail and installed b/f going to work. Just waiting to get home to start messing with it.

 

You have to download the latest update 1.1 R2.