Apple Silicon "Native version"

Have any of you checked how many Kontakt tracks (orchestral tracks) you can run on a 64gb Macbook Pro Max in Logic (Logic = native, Kontakt = Rosetta 2)?

 

I have decided to only install native silicon plugins on my system. This is it.

 

When management / POs prioritise new features over basic quality maintenance, they screw their own product and lose the respect of us customers. Simple.

Above all else, we don't want more features, we want existing features to work. Having to maintain 200+ products is not an excuse but strategic failure. (FabFilter specializes on Pro Effects. Guess how many different compressor plugins they offer: Exactly one ...) Btw, Apple Silicon support does not require rewriting code, it's basically a matter of recompiling.

I have NI Komplete, but since I'm on the M1 Pro chip (and since NI user interfaces still look pixelated and like from the 90s), I'm migrating away from NI. Thanks for the good old days and good bye.

 

Well looking at the state of affairs across all the manufacturers, you're not going to be left with a ton of plug-ins: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/apple-silicon-audio-compatibility-guide

But thank you for your participation and bye too

 

iLok is still a problem in the industry. It's coming soon.

Regarding the state of native silicon support, here's a list:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14YqYMLQvp2GiXDIrYdo1JO5sgGaL8dUuvhLB84YOKBs/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks for the link. That's interesting and shows that many other software houses seem to struggle too with the M1. I kinda got lucky, with the FabFilter Total Bundle and Ableton Live Beta. Kontakt 5 and all my Spitfire Audio instruments at least run with Rosetta. But what triggered me to move away from NI is that many essential NI Kontakt instruments won't even install.

I still suspect that this is a management- rather than an engineering issue. My previous point about management and POs certainly effects many software companies. And the engineering side: I brought a macOS app to Apple Silicon and all it took was to recompile it on the new machine. What am I missing here, aside from the usual logistics of releasing updates?

 

Which libraries are you talking about? Are these NI libraries, or 3rd party ones?

 

Well, it is not true. I know that Eventide had problems with installer. They have released their AS plugins week or two ago. Not sure if Rosetta or natove AS.... And for example NI Massive X needs rewritting some parts as AS does not has AVX instructions......

So, no it is not easy and simple task to convert SW for AS so that everything works fine. And lots of manforce is needed to test, that things work fine....

AVX instructions for example. And maybe some things concerning copy protection schemes....
Yes, no problem to recompile simple program for older Mas for AS. But what about multiplatform (Mac, Win and also Linux) program. Maybe using assembler for some parts... And AVX instructions... And so on. It may use libraries from other companies, that have to recompile it or let the source available. And so on...... And many plugins are not developed by NI, but by partners..... NI might or might no have source code for them. Or might have or might not have licence to port them to another type of CPU....
And when they manage to recompile it and make working installer, there is testing. And testing not only in one DAW, but in many DAWs. And those DAWs must be Apple Silicon first....

It is wise to test things as much as possible, before it leaves house. And it takes time.

 

Luck has nothing to do with it. If someone’s code is adhering to Apple Xcode guidelines and they are not using 15 years old graphic libraries - things are easy to port to Apple Silicon. Otherwise, it’s hard work and lot of tears

As for iLok, once Waves abandoned it - the writing was on the wall. At the moment, iLok is basically holding half of our industry back, because until iLok is M1 native, all iLok protected plugins cannot be compiled as M1 native.

BTW, Waves plugins are all M1 native and some of their plugins are 20 years old, and they have huge number of products (does that ring a bell?) - when there’s a will, there’s a way

There is however no future in hardware dongles - just look at Steinberg, abandoning their own eLicenser.

The thing with Apple is a bit like with Steinberg and VST3: Steinberg was also saying for years that VST2 is outdated and is to be replaced by VST3, but developers hardly listened and forced Steinberg’s hand to disallow new licenses for VST2 plugin development. And then there was a cry of thousand voices from developer’s community.

And yes, Apple will eventually abandon Rosetta 2 and rightfully so, otherwise some developer will never be forced to provide native versions

 

Dear Kubrak - old code, outdated libraries, not adhering to Xcode guidelines, using OpenGL instead of Metal, using AVX (as if all world will forever be running on Intel only) - that’s the dividing line between being able to just recompile or being forced to rewrite code from scratch. But why users are penalised for developers being lazy bums?

Over at KVR, there is one well known developer who cannot even make AU native version of his plugins, he can only do VST2, not even VST3, guess who is he blaming for this: Steinberg and Apple

Somehow he didn’t noticed that other developers can do AU and VST3 just fine (I’m not saying it’s easy, though).

 

Using AVX is OK, every decent processor has something like it. M1 is a toy (even the strongest M1 seems to be weaker than my "toy" CPU Ryzen 7 5700G - there are much stronger beasts available) and Apple will be forced to go back to Intel/AMD, sooner or later.... They are lagging behind AMD and sooner or later also Intel catches its breath. My guess is Apple is not going to reach the point to be at least close to what AMD delivers, in next 5 years. If ever. I see Rosetta 3 on horizon, comming soon.

M1 is fine for tablets, portable computers that benefit from energy efficiency. But not for really powerful PCs, where energy consumption is not the main thing and CPU power counts. I know that M1 is powerfull, but CPU technology has advanced a great deal in past few years, Thanks to AMD, not Intel, that has been cought with throusers down.

There is not just Apple, so why should developers adhere to Xcode guidelines? I do not know what Metal is. Is it sort of international standard like OpenGL?

You know, if Apple does not follow international standards and so users of their products have problems because of it. You should blame Apple, not NI. NI will handle it somehow, but it takes time....

 

Arturia VI Collection is M1 native as of today. IK Syntronic 2 is M1 native (but they didn’t bother to tell anyone, cause they are like that ). As I mentioned before, Waves (all plugins).

 

I’m not blaming NI, I just don’t like misinformation being spread. Apple is Apple - if one wants to code for their hardware, one has to follow THEIR guidelines, end of story.

As for M1 being a toy, you are so deep in your Intel/PC love that you are ignoring benchmarks, reviews and user opinions. Which is fine, as long as you are not presenting your opinions as ultimate truths

M1 Max Pro is comparable within 10-20% of horsepower with recent Alder Lake processors, but let’s not the facts get in your way…

So is AMD crap too, or you just don’t like M1 because it’s from Apple? Is anything X86 good for you and is everything else bad?

And before you start rebuking what I wrote, please answer me this: why do developers bother with coding for Apple platform at all? Why not abandon it (Mac is about 20% of computers worldwide) and do just PC/Windows apps? Why is that?

 

So it happens that (at least in western countries) laptops are about 80% of PCs being sold.

You with your huge noisy tower are in 20% of PC minority, I’m not sure you are aware of that

I want my studio to be quiet and energy efficient and Apple is providing.

You still haven’t answered my question: if Apple has only 20% of computer market then why do developers bother…

 

No AMD is not crap. I just say that my AMD Zen 7 APU 5700G (which is sort of toy processor just 8C/16T and only 65W including integrated GPU) is a toy. There are much stronger AMD processors, consumer segment 16C/32T (full cores) and pro segment even more 32C or 64C not sure, it changes fast...

I have seen some benchmarks of M1, and I was surprised that my 5700G seems to be a bit stronger than the strongest M1. Maybe it was only in that particular test.

I do not say anything x86 is good and all non-x86 is crap. M1 is great for notebooks or bottom end of heavyduty PC. No question it has lot of power. My "toy" CPU has also lots of power, no question. And most users do not need more, now.

But some need double, triple, quadruple more.... For home or pro use. x86 platform is able to meet those needs, Apple Silicon not at all. And will not be for decent price, unless they totally change things. And that takes many years.....

Apple is Apple - if one wants to port their SW to Apple platform, they will do it somehow. I do not develop for Apple so I do not know about their guidelines and how they change in time. If I see how often things change at Apple, I guess also guidelines change. But maybe I am wrong and the guidelines have not changed 15-20 years. Some SW is pretty old, it might have been along Apple guidelines from that time....

Well, 20% is good share, would be a mistake to omit it. And people buying Apple are wealthy by principle, so higher potencial to sell, than 20% market share would indicate. Apple is dominatly US thing, I guess. And US market is interesting, wealthy, so even more interesting. And OK, Apple might be better suited for musicians and so. Probably less configuration problems... Looks nice, nice build. So, most go troublesome path and port their SW for Apple.... ;-) Life is hard, but money rule the world.

I come from Europe, and I know only 3 people having Apple notebook. And two of them do not understand computers at all. Their teachers from US have recomendet them Apple, so they bought Apple. If they had europenan teacher, they would buy Win notebook and be happy as well... Maybe even more happy, as they would not have to face eternal SW compatibility issues when a new version of OS comes.... And pay Mac specialist to mend them every single thing...
So, I have met in my whole loooong life just a single one person that deliberaty has choosen use Apple computer knowing why.
You probably come from US and it seems to me Apple computers are very popular there. But the rest of world is ordinary Win PC, or Linux PC. And few Apple computers either for certain type of proffesionals, or people who do not understand it and buy something that is nice and similar to their phone.... Apple computers are real niche products in Europe.

 

I do not have huge tower. I have PC that is 15x15x8 cm (would be aprox. 6x6x3 in.), 8C/16T, 64GB RAM, 2TB SSD. And I may add 2 more SATA HDD/SSD, if needed. This setup cost me a bit over 1000 EUR including taxes. Say 1300 USD including taxes. Prices are generally higher in Europe, so one could get it cheaper in US, I guess.
And it has power of strongest M1. My setup is funny PC. Nothing super powerful, big and bulky. A wanted something small, easily transferable as a compromise between big PC and notebook. Notebook with this setup would cost me double or maybe triple and I would anyway use external monitor, keyboard and mouse with it....
And it is very quiet, I cannot hear ventilator even in silence of my room. Silent, unless I load all cores 100% with AVX code for longer time (30 s and more). It is 65 W APU that takes 82 W at most. Not hard to cool it.
It is not Intel....... With their powerhungry CPUs.... AMDs are way better. That is what Apple did not tell their customers. Comparing M1 with old or even new Intels gives way biased picture....

 

I’m originally from Poland but I live in UK and has been here for more than 16 years. Europe as Eastern Europe, yes I agree with you about Apple presence and popularity. Western Europe - another story. Not as popular as in USA, but certainly visible everywhere. In UK, literally every other person has iPhone and there are Macs everywhere. In my city (150 thousand people), there are three shops selling Apple computers, one Apple Store and two other (John Lewis and PC World). All of them has display where you can play with them many people do. Much less Apple in France and Germany but there are a lot.

In music and video production, Macs have 30-50% market in Western Europe/USA and as you yourself said, we like to spend money and we have money to spend

This is lucrative market and developers want a bit of that for themselves. But in order to do that, they have to deliver the goods. All I hear from many places are excuses and blame putting. All I hear from other places is “no problem, business as usual”. Guess to which places (developers) us, Mac users, will gravitate

 

There are now 3 M1 processors (M1, M1 Pro, M1 Max). Those are all low power laptop processors (desktop chips will be revealed in 2022). As you like AMD and big desktop ones - there you go (this is 10 core laptop processor vs 64 core desktop processor):

https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-max-vs-amd-ryzen-threadripper-3990x

Now imagine M2 with 32-64 the same cores as M1 and desktop power envelope, made on 3nm process….

 

OK UK is somewhat similar to US in many aspects. I wanted to mention that, but did not want my long thing make even longer...
I come from Czech Rep and I know no-one using Apple for music production. And I know few pro....

But anyway, Apple creates lucrative market for SW developers, so they cannot ignore it. But it is a nightmare. Still probably worth it....

https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-max-vs-amd-ryzen-7-5700g
1000 EUR miniPC on par with multi kEUR Apple.

I can imagine. 10-15 000 EUR? And that time, there are Zen4 on 5 nm. Probably 12 full cores in notebook, 32C in higher consumer segment and 128C in Pro highend? And Zen4 IPC will be say +20%, so 12C would represent power of 14C of Zen3 architecture...
And concerning M2. 32-62 of what cores? Big or little? Or Mix? If big, it will cost fortune.....

But stop, discussing. We will see soon. My guess is AS will end in few years. I may be wrong, if Apple customers will be willing to pay a lot......

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382175/quarterly-revenue-of-apple-by-geograhical-region/

Kubrak
Did you say you don’t know what Metal API is? That explain how unaware are you and how are you missing the whole point…

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/makes-apples-metal-graphics-technology-special/


It’s not about brute force…


AVX? Dedicated SoC technologies…
(from Apple’s web)
The M1 chip is packed with a number of powerful custom technologies, including:

• Apple’s latest image signal processor (ISP) for higher quality video with better noise reduction, greater dynamic range, and improved auto white balance.

• The latest Secure Enclave for best-in-class security.

• A high-performance storage controller with AES encryption hardware for faster and more secure SSD performance.

• Low-power, highly efficient media encode and decode engines for great performance and extended battery life.

• An Apple-designed Thunderbolt controller with support for USB 4, transfer speeds up to 40Gbps, and compatibility with more peripherals than ever.

These things are due dedicated technologies (inside the SoC) and thight software integration (macOS, iPadOS, iOS).
You can get some of them with brute force (Virtualdj can do spleeter separation on my old mac mini late12 full maxxed) but others require hardware acceleration (Ripx ask for a Gaming Gpu if you want advanced spleeting). Apple will grow over optimization and will win the race, in fact they did it but market is still figuring it out. Integrating memory inside the SoC isn’t just to be evil Apple not allowing users to upgrade their machines…

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/production-expert-1/why-the-apple-m1-chip-is-so-fast

https://www.macworld.com/article/234843/m1-macs-memory-isnt-what-it-used-to-be.html

https://www.ithinkdiff.com/m1-chip-macos-schedules-tasks-low-powered-cores/


Then we have two other questions…

https://www.barrons.com/articles/in...how-why-its-easier-said-than-done-51634595554
https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/...own-chips-to-ditch-intel-in-surface-products/

Why? Why not jump into AMD?

Because is not about brute force. It’s about efficiency. Even when Apple release in the future whatever they have planned for mac pro, it will be efficiency based, not brute force power hungry. Time for energy waste is gone. People wants Fortnite on tablet withut heat/trothelling issues.
Everyone wants to be Apple but you know more than Intel or Microsoft, of course…


Final words about niches…
Apple sells more iPhones in Gibraltar than NI traktor licenses on whole Spain. Understand that and get ready for subscription model or standalone devices. Desktop/laptop software model isn’t profitable for NI (or Serato) anymore. That’s why Traktor was in the edge and that’s why Engine Prime is now embedded inside hardware (the new numark is just a proof of concept) taking market from Serato (and also why Rane One works with iPad/iPhone meanwhile old Rane gear is going discontinnued for not being class compliant…)




https://serato.com/forum/discussion/1821129
https://serato.com/forum/discussion/1835513
https://serato.com/forum/discussion/1835900


Movements are out there but you need to do your homework better.