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Are you ever going to fix the key sync issue in FM8

Discussion in 'FM8' started by Jonathan Dozesoph, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. Jonathan Dozesoph

    Jonathan Dozesoph New Member

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    7
    I can't believe this is still an issue

    have been away from production due to health reasons for a long time and i just got to installing some of my older VSTI's.i really like FM8 but i always had the issue with the key sync simply not working (it's not even partially broken,it just does not work)and i thought by now if i was to get the latest update it would of been fixed by now..how has this still not been addressed.Absynth 5 has a similar issue but it can be tricked into working by playing round with the voice count.this strange and should be unnecessary workaround does not work with FM8.i never owned FM7 so i am not familiar of how old this issue is,but it's been in FM8 since the beginning and i am puzzled as to why you have a function in a synth that simply does not work and is absolutely crucial for certain sound design tasks.this also seems to be an issue in FM8 FX
     
  2. Paule

    Paule NI Product Owner

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    5,148
    With the new CMO I hope they repair it ASAP
     
  3. Jonathan Dozesoph

    Jonathan Dozesoph New Member

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    7
    Hopefully
    but in what,over a decade? it hasn't been fixed yet and judging by the lack of traction on this post,it would seem like most people aren't bothered.i have my doubts:(
     
  4. Paule

    Paule NI Product Owner

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    5,148
    German speak: Neue Besen kehren gut
    Translation: A new broom sweeps clean
     
  5. MarioD

    MarioD NI Product Owner

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    304
    I think that NI has given up on FM8, just like they did on B3II, even though other companies are pushing FM sounds. FM8 is something I use only occasionally but it is a great FM sound product.
     
  6. Paule

    Paule NI Product Owner

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    5,148
    I don't hope - but mayhaps your're right!
     
  7. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

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    15,180
    Hmmm I just did a quick test in FM8 standalone from default patch.

    1. Set output of operator F to max, 100
    2. Enable operator E and set modulation amount of E->F to max, 100
    3. Set the ratio of operator E to 0 and set offset to 1 Hz, so we get a slow pitch modulation

    Now by toggling operator E Key Sync, I can verify that every time I hit a key I get exactly the same phase on operator E, without exceptions. Disabling Key Sync of course the phase is different on every new note.


    But... from what I can tell here, key sync seems to work just fine?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Jonathan Dozesoph

    Jonathan Dozesoph New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Don't know what to tell you.i just tried myself in FL Studio and Reaper and its the same drill.it works for about 32bars and then its like it begins to drift.if you start stop playback it doesn't even work again and weirdly,even if you delete the VST and insert it again,this time when it is loaded it starts off straight away with the broken key sync.it's been like that since the earliest update.if it works stand alone that's cool,but generally useless for certain tasks (synthesizing drums for instance as they need a context to be worthwhile)and begs the question,why doesn't it work in a DAW:confused:

    EDIT:So i was just playing round with it again and i managed to get it to work for about 5minutes after stopping starting playback,and then after those 5minutes,it begun to oscillate between 45 and about 70 degrees phase offset on the other operator i had mixed in.it seems to be related to the polyphony.if you set mono it's almost as if it drifts through the different voices and they all do not start on key sync.if you set more than 2 voices and mono you will hear what i mean.Absynth has this very same issue so there's obviously something weird about how voices work in some of these NI synths.i am tempted to buy a copy of FM7 off of Ebay just to see if the issue was there too
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    15,180
    Hmmm what exactly are you doing there, playing 32 bar long notes, or?

    Because I'm here in DAW, running transport all the time and doing the same patch I explained above, it always starts from the same phase with realtime MIDI input. I plotted over 32 bars of the same two notes being triggered, all of them were starting from the same phase.


    I'll gladly check your Reaper project, just make sure it only has FM8 and MIDI data in.
     
  10. Jonathan Dozesoph

    Jonathan Dozesoph New Member

    Messages:
    7

    Why would i lie about what i am doing...and there is really nothing to see.simply quarter notes for 32 bars,no modulation of any sort,analog is off,key sync on all oscillators.both in Reaper and FL Studio i get the same issue.i don't know why you are having trouble accepting that this is an actual issue and has been known for some time.i have seen lots of people bring it up and the last time i was even in a DAW or active on production communities is about half a decade.just google "FM8 key sync issue or retriggering FM8"and you will see people posing the same questions.there's even a video of somebody making a kick drum (i think it's an ADSR video)and they say "activate the key sync so we get the same phase on every note"and it's even broke on that video (though it seems to have gone over the head of the creator clearly lol)

    EDIT:i have confirmed for myself that it is related to the polyphony somehow.i can break it instantly if i set the voices higher or lower than what they are in the init patch with key sync on.it's not completely random,it seems to oscillate between 3 phase positions,and if i stop start it,it will alter the triggering of those 3 patterns.sometimes it is a really small degree,so hardly noticeable as it occurs for very first cycles initial curvature(that still doesn't qualify as retriggering for me)perhaps it needs a global level gate retrigger,as well as operator level
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  11. Big Gnome

    Big Gnome NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    429
    Weird. It's working as expected over here too. Maybe post a patch you're having issues with?
     
  12. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    15,180
    Because I cannot reproduce it on my side - has nothing to do with "trouble accepting". Which is why I asked you for a Reaper project.
     
  13. Jonathan Dozesoph

    Jonathan Dozesoph New Member

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    7
    are you simply glossing over what i am saying..the patch doesn't matter i can recreate this issue continuously from the init patch.how stupid would i have to be to not realise that the keysync was not on and then complain that its not working.i already said i have determined that the issue is related to the polyphony that all the voices in FM8 do not seem to be retriggering properly with key sync on after some time

    this is all i am doing and i can recreate it consistently.i downloaded the demo of Studio One and Tracktion Waveform and i can recreate the same issue.the DAW does not matter

    1.open FM8 any preset that isn't supposed to be free running or the init patch (just operator F)

    2.check keysync is on,or enable it on the init patch as it is initially off for operator F

    3.(optional)apply an envelope and turn the sustain button off

    4.draw in some quarter notes for 16/32/whatever bars

    5.hit playback and eventually after stopping and starting a few times the key sync will cease to work.another way to instantly break it is to adjust the voice count from what it was in the init patch or any patch you have loaded.also the unison works this way too.if you have keysync on it and engage unison it seems to step through the different voices as you can hear the phase difference increase as it gets to the higher numbered voices

    FYI this is with the latest update as well,but i tried some older ones and this is not related to any particular update/DAW or setup

    i am not stupid i am a competent sound designer and don't need people to confirm for me that i have the keysync on.there is nothing unique about the patch,the MIDI data or the DAW so sending patches or projects for any of the DAW's i have tried it in will not reveal anything out of the ordinary

    I'm not sure what any of you mean by that you can't recreate it.what it seems like to me is that the key sync simply LIMITS the amount of phase rotation,it doesn't seem to retrigger consistently at the start of the cycle at whatever the initial phase is.with key sync off it will rotate a full 180 degrees through the waveforms,with keysync on it wont do that unless you have actual phase modulation going on between operators as then the what would be tiny offsets for one operator get increased cause of phase wrapping between the waveforms(that's not a bug though that's just the nature of phase modulaton)
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  14. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    15,180
    Well, I just spent 20 minutes starting and stopping transport, playing a bunch of notes, and it all sounds fine to me. Every note sounds the same, has the same amount of pitch modulation and starts from the same phase when key sync is on. I was also changing max polyphony count all the time.

    upload_2019-9-18_11-40-23.png


    If you don't want to send a Reaper project, well that's your choice. But it would really help here.

    upload_2019-9-18_11-51-34.png

    Also 180 degrees is not full cycle, it's half the waveform cycle. Of course operators are always going through the whole waveform (all 360 degrees :)). As far as I can see from all this testing, key sync does exactly what is written in the manual.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  15. Jonathan Dozesoph

    Jonathan Dozesoph New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Well not for me.i can hear and both see it shift and with key sync on(regardless of DAW,patch,MIDI data),but the amount it shifts is limited,and with key sync off it is free running (as expected) and it rotates the phase by a larger degree.somehow you felt the need to take a screenshot to explain the difference between key sync and free running oscillators to me.i guess the only possible explanation is that i am stupid huh and don't understand the difference:rolleyes:


    How exactly is the Reaper project going to help.i just explained EXACTLY what i did in steps.i also said i went to the trouble of downloading the demos of 2 other DAW's just to see if by chance this issue was limited to Reaper and FL Studio.i can recreate it in those DAW's as well.explain to me exactly how sending you a Reaper project(or any other DAW project for that matter)is going to show you what i am hearing/seeing if you say you can't recreate it.again...there is nothing unique about the patch,MIDI data, or the DAW.none of them matter in this context, therefore providing a project wont reveal any kind of user error or unique situation that would cause me to recreate the broken functionality of the keysync in other DAW's.if this issue was exclusive to one particular DAW that i used then i would see the merit in having that investigated,but i fail to see what exactly you can gauge from a project in one specific DAW if i am telling you i can recreate this issue consistently in 4 different DAW's,and with different updates of FM8 itself (which was tedious to do by the way)

    Here i attached a clip so you can hear what i mean about keysync only limiting the amount of phase rotation,and it not retriggering at the exact cycle on every not triggered.i used 100% modulation between F/E to further demonstrate what i am talking about as the phase rotation with just F activated is minor,but it's still there(it increases though if i play around with the voice count)

    https://clyp.it/x0rvdnjw (description of the specifics in the link)
     
  16. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    15,180
    Can you try the patch that I screenshot above and see if every note sounds the same for you or not? Over here it sounds the same every time.
     
  17. Jonathan Dozesoph

    Jonathan Dozesoph New Member

    Messages:
    7

    Attached Files:

  18. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    15,180
    That's not the patch that I did. Here's how my patch sounds over here.


    To me that sounds the same on every note. Checking the waveforms, the same thing happens everywhere, phase-wise. The envelopes though, don't seem to render identically every time, and they can't be bypassed, and minimum attack time is 1 ms.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019