B4 versus B4 II

Comparing B4II with Hammond B3/Leslie 142

Here is my latest comparison report after spenbding half an hour on the subject. Although I could not listen to the B3/L142 and the B4II at the same time (different houses) I found some clear and maybe even explainable differences.

The first is an apparent lack of compression in the B4II. When I push the expression pedal on the B3 Console at a certain point the B3 valve amp starts to add a touch of tupbe overdrive and the volume does not get very much louder. The same thing happens if I change drawbar settings from 888000000 to 888888888 or changes from one key to a double handed C11 chord - the sound changes radically but does not get that much louder. Tube compression I suspect. B4II does not seem to compress that much.

The second is the lack of emulating double tube amp. I can turn down the input on the L142 and open for full steam at the B3. The sound has a overdriven but still warm "rumbling" character. Think of a Hammond that "growls" and "grinds". This is the Hammond amp in action. Then I go the other way - full volume at the Leslie and careful use of expression/drawbars at the organ. It is now the Leslie amp being overdriven - the sound is now closer to the B4II - more treble distortion, a nuance of "crackling", but not as much as the B4II, and it sounds like the L142 cuts treble below the cutoff used in B4II. It may be the B4II can model the dual amp behaviour , but I cannot see any direct way to control it the same way I did with the B3/L142.

I also tried adjusting the tone control on the Hammond (it is inside the cabinet). It had a significant influence - full treble and the Hammond "howls" like a 70's rock group, turn it down for jazz/church sound. It had great significance on overdrive sound as well. So - tone control must be before amp and cabinet. I could not find any direct relationship with the B4II here either - it seemed tone control is after ditube amp(??). Seems a bit strange, may be I am mistaken.

Of course I found several other differences. But these is not so related to the overdrive, maybe I'll make a new report later. Anybody else doing comparison with a real Hammond? All Hammonds are different....

--gordon

 

Gordon,

While your post is extremely interesting and merits it's own thread... this thread is about the sound differences between Native Instruments' B4II and the original B4, not in comparison to a real Hammond B3.

I'd love to hear more about your comparison of B4/B4II to your B3, though, as well as some some audio samples.

 

Hi Gordon,

I do not quite agree that the post has nothing to do with the B4 vs B4II as long as the theme seems to be the distortion. After all both softwares is supposed to emulate a B3.... I outlined the diff Between the B4II and its inspirator. But I can see that I miss the B4 vs B3 comparison. Here is the short version: The B4 to B3 is not too different, but the B3 I have is not possible to drive into that much distortion as the B4. In addition the B4 is much "cleaner " than the B3 at low levels. The B3 hardly stops overdriving if you press more than a few keys, no matter how low volume. The "leslie" overdrive in ther L142 is not there in the B4. Not surprising, as it has no cabinet simulation.


I have tried another thing as well in a music shop - a '70s Hammond X5 (actually nice clonewheel) overdriving a Leslie 760 (solid state transistor based). The combination sounded more like the B4II overdrive thathan anything else I have heard lately....

Summarized I think the B4 is not too bad emulation of B3 with the Hammond tube amp. The B4II emulates a B3 with a solid-state Leslie 760 quite good. Unfortunately that is not what we want I think.

--gordon

 

Thanks, Gordon. Good points.

Okay, Thomas, it's well over a week now. Anything to report???

 

Very interesting topic! Thanks to Thomas for letting us know that NI are listening, and super thanks to Gordon for posting his in-depth test results! I find this all really positive.
I too often find myself still using B4 v1, although B4 II does sound superb in a mix!
Maybe all we need is an extra item in the Cabinets menu, where the icon, instead of being a Leslie cabinet or DI box, is a photo of the boxed B4 v1 package!
(although, implementing Gordon's findings could well be a candidate for B4 III.. we already have Battery 3, so why not! )

 

One difference between the B4 and B4II would be the way they respond to the expression or volume pedal plugged on the same keyboard, same computer, same everything.

With the B4, the volume pedal works a better range from start to end. With the B4II, the effective range does not follow the same flow, so that the effect is not as nice. With the B4II, the expression pedal the effective range is mainly towards the end of the travel, like 1/3 or so, rather than the full pedal travel.

Have only the B4, and am comparing with the demo of the B4 II.

Am considering the B4 II if that has adjustable parameters so it feels the same as with the B2.

Is that feature adjustable?

Thanks.

 

Thomas, any update?

Been a while, Thomas. Any update for us???

 

Almost 3 more months have passed and not a peep from NI on this important problem.

I want my growl!

"Mach schnell, Bitte."

 

hello Huston, we still have this problem ...

any news on when we can expect the distortion/saturation issue adressed ... maybe through a thesedays ever more popular 'hotfix' ...

i gotta admit i use the B4 less and less cause it just doesn't have the same feel than the old one.

been a while now, maybe this would be agood time to give use an udate on what's going on on the devlopment side ? remember 'it's good to talk' ...

 

once again ...

anybody out there ... ?

 

Dear friends,

I do have the following comments to make, after some re-visiting of my Demo copy of B4-II, as compared to my B4 1.1.5, which I have had and used for years, and am still using.

Up to sometime ago, I would agree with most of what's said negative of the B4-II.

But have been doing one-to-one comparisons on both, on the same identical computer, speakers, and MIDI-keyboard, and would like to make the following comments:

I believe that some of the problems experienced may stem from the fact that the B4-II sound engine is actually BETTER than that of the B4.

What I mean is that the B4-II actually seems to put a lot more quality of sound that is not there in the older B4.

That means that the low frequencies are much more abundant (actually the whole wave-range) and therefore, what we have is a case that the older output was LESS demandant of resources than the newer B4-II. Better samples and features used?

Whay I mean by resources is not only CPU power, but also sound-card, amlifier, and SPEAKERS.

Quite a few of the presets of the B4-II have the Drive parameter set up quite high for typical desktop sound systems and small speakers are over-driven.

By lowering the Drive parameter, I do seem to find and hear sounds of much higher quality that I can simply not hear with the B4, no matter what I tweak in it.

The fellows at N.I. surely have top-grade sound systems with high grade INSTRUMENT-grade speakers and amplifiers that CAN drive the presets as shipped.

This review I am making after having put some newer and somewhat better speakers in my p.c.

Those speakers are still not powerful enough, nor large enough to reproduce the gama of frequencies being put out, and their volume.

But I am convinced that that is the issue, as far as I am concerned.

Althugh the B4 is great sounding, playing it after having played the B4-II one does note quite a bit of difference in the QUALITY of the overall sound.

Basically, the B4-II is a much more capable sound, and when our equipment does not match its output quality and power, we do have to tweak the presets, and save them, so that we have presets that match our current sound equipment.

Because I have been upgrading my equipment, I am being quite careful on what to do and not jump into wrong conclussions.

But since my plan is to play the B4 for quite a long time, I have opted to order an amplified-mixer, and will definitely be getting a set of better quality speakers. Grant it, I will still have to tweak presets, no matter what. But, hey, presets are so easy to tweak and save.

But I wil also pretty soon be armed with a set of studio quality 'pro' headphones, which I will use not only for less-biased testing, but for actual practicing purposes.

These upgrades are not just meant for the B4.

However, I will also be buying the B4-II.

I share this post in the full understanding that this experiece is limited to my own and particular case.

Thanks for reading this.

-B4nAfter-

 

B4-II requested features

An important feature that is not available on the older B4, and does not seem to be available in the B4-II would be:

1. An ON/OFF button that apperas on the screen, and that can be assigned to a MIDI controller, which Mutes/Un-Mutes the amplifier so that no sound at all comes-out when Muted, while pushing the same button, un-Mutes the amplifier, meaning that it comes back-ON at the SAME volume that it was before muting it.

This feature is quite important because it would allow a most convenient way to play another software, or module, such as a Piano in an alternative way.

2. Also, controllers in the B4 are FIXED to a MIDI control number. It would be best if they were ASSIGNABLE to any MIDI controller number (with some restrictictions of course). That way we could assign, for instance, the volume to a controller that does not affect some other software (typically sound module), so that we could adjust/blend B4 sounds with voices from other instruments by SEPARATE controllers.

The way it works now is: We can choose which of our hardware controller controls, as long as our hardware is assigned to the FIXED MIDI control number. This is not flexible enough, and obvious conflicts (with other sound modules) and difficulties in doing what one wants to do result.

Of course, the MIDI control-numbers, that are now FIXED could, very well, be the DEFAULT assignments, for those who ONLY play the B4, and nothing else simultaneously.

B4nAfter.

 

B4nAfter,

B4II has the midi assignment features you are looking for. You can dynamically assign the B4II controls to any midi cc number, either manually or via a learn function.

Dan

 

The B4 team looked into concerns about the new overdrive section quite thoroughly. That being said, we also received a lot of feedback from users who like the overdrive in the new version better.

The overall consensus seems to be that the B4 I overdrive sounds a bit warmer, but that the B4 II overdrive is generally more realistic towards the original instrument. It really seems to be a matter of taste in the first place.

Adding the B4 I overdrive as a further option into B4 II is on the list of potential measures for a future update, but there are currently no specific plans or dates that I could pass on.

Regards, Thomas

 

Thank you, Thomas. "Adding the B4 I overdrive as a further option into B4 II" is an option that would please everyone including us "crybabies". I hope that is what you do.

Your work is appreciated.

Dan Barnes

 

yes, thanks Thomas, i think that adding the old disto as a separate feature would be perfect! i also like the B4II but i have a lot of songs done with the B4I which I haven't managed to get to sound like before with the new disto.

for me personally there is no rush though, i'm more than happy if it makes it into the next update, whenever that comes along ...

thx for your concern !

 

NO, NO! ASARP, please. (As Soon As Reasonably Possible.)

 

... ok i agree ASARP would be nice, i just thought ASAP would be pushin it ...

 

Compression

This is actually the 'power drain' effect, as it is most commonly refered to, also known as key-compression. it basically comes from where the name suggests, in that the power from the voltage regulator has to be distributed evenly across the entire circuitry, and thus when more tonewheel pickups are being used, the overall voltage in each is lower (as in a paralell circuit).
This is often seen as a very important aspect of the tradidional hammond sound, however, as was mentioned earlier, the X5, actually being a transistor organ, does not have such pronounced compression effects.
I have yet to purchase the B4 II or B4, allthough I have recently downloaded the demo, personally I would be quite dissapointed to find that either of these do not effectively simulate the power drain effect.

Brad

 

Thank you, Dan, for clarification.

B4nAfter.