B4 versus B4 II

Dear B4 friends,

I have now done some more testing to my own ends of the B4-1 and B4-II, after some upgrades to my system, and would like to share these particular observations:

1. With a newer MIDI-USB-Keyboard, in particular Axiom, I can now play BOTH the B4-1 and B4-II simultaneously, each on a stand-alone mode. That's because these newer boards have some "multi-client driver". This opens another possibilit of sound, of course, meaning now it's BOTH playing at the same time, and it sounds pretty good. It's possible, of course, to tweak each independently, or tweak draw-bars, etc., at usnison. How meaningful this is, it probably depends on what one comes-up with. Of course, one can also overlay the B4's with other instruments, of other softwares, to good practical ends.

2. It may also have to do with the sound-card having more than one audio-output. This one here is the Audigy 2-ZS, on a Turion-64 laptop, not the latest nor best. I run Windows XP. I suspect, though, from reading, though, that Macintosh computers are better at driving MIDI than windows machines. Has anyone any comparisons?

3. This also allowed me to test for sounds of the B4-1 and II alternatevely, simply by lowering the sweell of one or the other, to compare.

4. One can make the B4-II read the exact same preset file of the B4-1, but not viceversa. Doing that, I liked the B4-1 sound better.

5. It is not possible to read the presets of the B4-II into the B4-1 (a message complains of the older version).

5.5 Side-Note: On the B4-1, if one tweaks any setting of a preset, and exits the software, WITHOUT going to another preset, the changes ARE SAVED 'somewhere' because when opening the software again, that preset is altered. However, if one changes the current preset, goes to another one, and comes back to the first, the changes ARE NOT THERE. This sounds like wrong logic. Before these tests, I was under the impression that one had t SAVE in order to keep changes, but that is not true in that peculiar way. When I say "saved somewhere" I mean it's not clear WHERE this is changed, becuase if it's saved in the preset file, the file's 'modified' date IS NOT changed. But I suspect it's saved in THAT file. Any one has some input on this?

6. Overall, so far, I like the B4-1 sound BETTER, even if it is not as close to a real B3. The 'playability' of the B4-1 feels also better. Including the use of the swell pedal.

7. On the swell pedal, I bot a Roland Ev-5 recently, which DOES NOT compare well to an old Yamaha that I had. I did not know there was a better Roland EV-9, and am stuck with one that I don't quite like. The issue is the EV-5 moves quite a bit before actually affecting sound, and when it affects it it is in a very narrow range (the total 1-127). The second pot in the Roland-EV5 does nothing to improve the situation. It has to do with the total movement of the rehostat, and the amount of rotation in degrees of the pedal. The Yamaha, on the other hand, has more 'travel' or degrees of rotation, all of which is EFFECTIVE in sending values. This is verified by watching MIDI-in data numbers. The more expenssive EV-9 advertises 'more degrees of rotation', and may be a better choice, just from the description.

8. However, the swelling of the B4-1 SOFTWARE, is nicer (to me) than that of the B4-II, trying both pedals. This is important to me.

9. The B4-II puts out a lot of LOW frequencies, and power at the low-end. Some furniture and objects, and the large table on which two large speakers are, rattle. Lot of power at the low end, indeed. BUT, can't put those features of the B4-II to a happy end. I will try some more, though.

So, overall, I am staying with the B4-1 for now, and will explore the B4-II some more, but it does takes a lot of time.

Wishing the best to everyone,

B4nAfter.

 

Hi everybody,

after reading all of the messages to the difference between B4 and B4 II and after my own experiences with both instruments I have to agree to (almost) all B4-users in this forum. The very reason that made me buy the B4 II-upgrade was the unfixed problem of the "hanging tone" in the B4, regardless of any updates of the B4-software.
Besides the unusuable overdrive in the B4 II there is another problem that I have with the B4 II: using the controller (sweller) pedal leads to a horrible "digital scratching" that didn't appear with the B4. I'm a mac-user (PowerBook G4, 1.67 GHz, 2 GB RAM, MAC OS 10.4.10). Does anybody make the same experience?

Like most of the forum I'm staying with the B4 as long as these problems with the B4 II aren't fixed.

All the best,

Klaus

http://www.piaschieringorchester.de

 

Hi Klaus,

The 'scratching' sound relates to the awful amount of data that the swell pedal sends to the B4. It is the equivalent of 'too many notes' and it can be helped in Windows by adjusting the ASIO driver parameters. It did seem to me that the b4-II is more prone to that noise, and it seems to me that it is because the B4-II wants to use more CPU resources that the B4-I. In other words, with default settings, it is much more easy to get 'noise' from the B4-II than from the B4-I, either by pressing many keys at once, or by pumping the pedal. Lowering the overdrive also helps. The more CPU probably relates to the modeling of more amplifier parameters in the B4-II, hence more demands on ASIO and MIDI. As we all know, there's a trade-off on how much data can be processed in real time for what we have. Perhaps in future versions the data of the swell pedal can be 'averaged' to reduce the total data handled? It could also be provided with some sort of 'travel' akin to 'velocity sensing'? Maybe logarithmic instead of linear response too?

Best wishes.

 

Hi !

I don´t have any "scratchin" issue w/ B4II by using Roland EV5 or Yamaha midi CC pedals under ASIO w/ RME PCI audio-hardware and a Steinberg Midex-8 midi interface. I use old Roland/Rhodes MK80 and Yamaha KX76 as masterkeyboards connected to the midex by standard midi, - not USB.
I also can do clusters, slurs and very fast runs without getting stuck or hanging notes...
This is very, very rare and can happen w/ almost any midi equipment. My latency is 6ms, standalone or w/ Cubase SX3.
Sometimes, the B4II pleases me more than the B4, sometimes it´s the opposite, - depends on what to do. I use both and I can live w/ it. My machine is "outdated slow" and XP SP1.

KB

 

Hi B4nAfter,

thanks very much for your advice. Changing the ASIO-parameters (which means just switching the audio priority from "high" to "very high") solved the problem and the "scratching" was gone!
I've got Cubase SX 2.2 running on a MAC (as I wrote before) and an audiophile USB sound card / MIDI-interface. I'm using a Korg SP200 as a piano-keyboard (via the audiophile) and a CME UF6 via USB for organ and synthesizers. The volume pedal that I use is an old Yamaha, plugged into the UF6.

Again thanks and all the best!

Klaus

 

+2 for the previous sound of the B4, myself & my mate Greg, both B4 users. (I have xpress keyboards B4 version)

I've just come on to this forum today to ask a question re Kontakt, I'm glad people have raised this issue. Dont they say 1 person complaining is the same as 100 wanting to complain but not bothering? Alot of musician's cant be bothered with forums, NI I'm sure recognise this, j

 

Ignorance is Bliss

No, I don't think NI does recognize this. They've got their heads so far up their asses. They have done nothing to address an issue which now spans 5 pages and over a year and a half of posts. As I stated in my post back in january of 2006, I continue to use B4-I live, even though I own a copy of B4-II. And now besides not fixing B4-II, NI doesn't even support B4-I for intel based Macs.

 

B4 Verses B4II

I bought B4 nearly 4 years ago after comparing it to my near mint '57 B-3. I had been using the Hammond XK-2 (since I will not move the B-3) and promptly sold it. I play the B4II thru a Leslie 145. The only real difference I noted at the time between the B4 and the actual B-3 was a slightly weaker bass output from the B4. I ran the signal thru a small mixer and tweaked up the bass. Perfect! When the B4II came out, I saw it sported a bass and treble control. I wanted that so I could dump the mixer.

After a while, I noticed some other differences in the sound from time to time. Some days it sounded fuller, some days less etc. To my total amazement, I found out that the microphone controls actually effect the sound when using the DI output. Hmmm...weird.
Since I was changing presets to find the sound I wanted, I was recording my standard changes like DI and the tone settings, but never looked at the mic settings, since I wasn't using and cabinets. They were set differently on different presets.

At first I thought dumb...but really it gives you more adjustments to the sound. So, I found that setting the Rotator and the Mic Pan to 10 o'clock seems to give me the "right" sound. I believe I have the balance and air set to 12 o'clock though I don't think they have much if any effect on the DI setting. This may help with the overdrive since it will effect the overall sound. I don't use overdrive in my situation. Recently, I wanted a very slight overdrive and since I play the B4II in Kore, I added the Lo-Fi effect found in Kore. That made some nice overdrive sounds with some tweaks.

I love the B4II and really when played thru a Leslie, it sounds sweet!

Geoelectro

AMD Dual-Core - Korg Triton/pro - B4D - Leslie 145.

 

Thanks Geoelectro,

Setting Rotator to between 10 and 2 o'clock indeeds removes the annoying brightness and improves the overdrive sound. Most presents have Rotator set completely open. Nice tip.

Dan

 

i really wish that instead of the discussion wether B4II sounds better or how you can make it sound 'close' to version 1 there would just be one of the following options:

- a switch in v2 "use v1 sound"
- the possibility for version 2 users to get v1 for a small fee and be able to run it in parallel with v2

i don't know if the old v1 would even still run on my studio or mobile setups, but my problem is that i made quite a lot of songs a couple of years ago but the b4I license wasn't mine ... one of the reasons to upgrade to Komplete was to be able to work on those old songs 'out of the box' so to speak. no matter what i do , i just can't get that warm overdriven sound in v2 and believe me i've tried ...

 

Sorry if this has been asked before, but can the B4-1 sounds be used in B4-2? If so, how is this accomplished?

 

Yes, I agree. The B4 II is a great improvement over the the B4 in all respects, except for the Distortion, which actually sounds worse. It's too crackly for some patches, too harsh for others. I wish there was a way to get that creamy tube overdrive sound, but it seems impossible. How bout a little toggle switch in the "tube amp" section to choose "distortion type" ? NI could probably do this easily. (I hope they do)

 

Just another +1 on the distortion on B4 II being extremely bad. How could this have been let out the door?

 

Why the B4 II was released w/bad Distortion?

NI probably thought, "well, if we make it Perfect, then how can we make money selling upgrades to a better version?"

Let's face it, the software biz is rough. If a product can't be improved upon, you can't have a version 2, 3, 4, 5, etc,..

Just a guess on my part.

 

Hi,

This trick is for Mac users, but to my ears it works really nice. This example is for Rax but should work with most DAWs allowing MIDI input to insert FX.

1) Disable all FX (Leslie, 'overdrive', etc) on your instrument, to give a clean, DI type of sound.

2) In the first insert FX slot, put AirWindows Density – a really cool, subtle, analog sounding overdrive AU plug-in.

3) In the second insert FX slot, put B4/B4 II FX; disable all sound generation (drawbars, percussion, etc) and dial up a nice Leslie sound. Disable the built-in 'overdrive', of course!

And hey! presto, you've got an overdriven Leslie sound that (to my ears, I sold my M102 and 122 years ago...) is miles above the NI built-in "overdrive".

You can download Density at:

http://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=6FEGJ_LIVE&&

It's near the bottom of the page.

Oh, forgot to mention – Density is a FREE download!

HTH,

Joey

 

For Windows, instead of AirWindows Density, use NickCrow's TubeDriver

 

Thx 4 the tip Joey - I will definitely try this out when I have a few spare moments - Jon

 

First of all thanks for the Density Plug, it will be handy for me. I just tried your method and, despite the fact it's a nice concept, I didn't get how Play the Organ and control the Leslie at the same time. Because now you're dealing with two separate instance of the B4?

Do I get this right?

Also how do you disable the sound generation of the FX B4?
And what about the FX section of the sound generation B4? I don't quite get it still...

 

Absolutely!

I set all the drawbars to zero...

I disable the DRIVE (= 0), the Leslie (BRAKE to STOP) and select the DI module in CABINETS as output. The MIC PAN and the AIR controls in the sound generation B4 II still influence the sound character, though, and have to be tweaked to taste.

One additional point – I tend to prefer mapping the SWELL PEDAL to the 'FX B4 II' (after the Density effect, in other words), otherwise the Density overdrive level varies too much for my taste, since it's very dependent on the input level.

Hope this makes it clearer.

/Joey

 

Alright but that brings me back to my first question:"how do you play the organ, Switch the drawbars, control the leslie and activate the swell pedal on two different instance with only one controller?