B4 versus B4 II

Depends on you OS, host and controller you are using, so:

• What OS are using? (e.g. OSX/WinXP)
• Which Host? (e.g. Cubase/Logic)
• What controller are you using?

If you post this information, I am sure somebody will be able to tell you how to set up your system ...

 

Since the drawbars of the FX instantiation are zeroed, it doesn't make any sound even if it's listening to the same MIDI channel as the instrument.

Since the Leslie is deactivated on the 'instrument' instantiation, it doesn't react to switching Leslie speed, even if it's on the same MIDI channel as the FX.

If you want to tweak the drawbars using a hardware controller, you need a separate controller and have the instrument listen to Omni, and the FX set to another MIDI channel than what the drawbar controller is sending on.

There are probably other setups that would work also.

Why don't you try it out and report back? I think you've got enough information to act on.

/Joey

 

Ok so here's what I came up with in Digital Performer with my CME VX-7:

In DP you assign your MIDI track to Instrument Tracks instead of instant of a VI so I can't just control both at the same time if they are on the same instrument channel.

Having several MIDI out on my VX-7, I had to assign the sliders on my ctrl on another MIDI port than the keyboard. So it was keyboard on MIDI out#1 and slider on MIDI out#2.
Then I made two separate MIDI tracks in DP. One to play the keyboard and one to control the leslie.
After that, I simply enabled MIDI multi recording in DP and armed both MIDI tracks. So here I am now controlling the manual and the leslie with one keyboard!

Thanks guys for helping sort this out....

 

If I'm not mistaken, the last post from NI said "Many of our users like the unusable distortion", despite the fact that I haven't seen one person in this thread who agreed with that. They seem to be in denial about the fact that the B42 distortion model is fundamentally broken. I'd say get a Kurzweil PC3, that's got a much better Hammond (downside is that it's not available for purchase yet.)

 

to be fair, the B4 II's Distortion is not completely unusable. When you need a hard, crackly sound, or a very harsh distortion sound, it delivers. What's lacking is a Silky, Soft, Analogue type distortion. This is just the type of distortion the B4 II could benefit from. If the B4 II's distortion could sound more like a smooth vintage amp being overdriven, (maybe in a future update) this would make alot of people happy.

 

It doesn't sound analog and the public has spoken.

If there is a B4 III, it needs more options and controls for distortion types. The ability to EQ and filter the distortion seaprately from the drawbars, tube types, etc. It would be the single biggest improvement IMHO.

 

Funny nobody has brought this up yet, but actually to me the OD problem doesn't seem to be trivial to fix.
NI use the amp/speaker modeling from Guitar Rig, correct ?
Ymmv, but I have yet to find one amp in GR that has a remotely authentic transition between clean and (slightly) dirty, which is exactly what's needed for many Hammond sounds, especially when playing with the controls.
Try any real tube amp with a clean sound at lower volume, then turn up the master (!) until the sound is getting slightly crunchy. Now you have power tube distortion which is where the real magic can be found, as any blues guitar player will tell you.
Then try this with GR.
A lot of folks won't notice since squeaky clean and massively distorted actually do sound allright.
It seems modeling this dynamic behaviour wasn't high on the list for NI, and now they (we ?) are stuck with these algos until they want to develop a completely new engine, costing big money. All that can be done on the cheap is cover up the issue with tons of FX and tweaking of the speaker simulation, the GR3 solution.
Fwiw, the old freeware Simulanalog reacts a lot more like a real tube amp.
Ymmv,
nice holidays,
Rhino

 

Good post, Rhino – right on the money.

I just bit the bullet and bought (well, not actually paid it yet...) the Hughes & Kettner Rotosphere II (real tube in there!), looping the B4 II, less OD and rotors but including the closed Leslie cabinet sim, out analog and back in again through my MH MIO 2882.

Not quite a real Leslie, of course, but not too far off. I'm rather pleased. ;-)

Merry Christmas, everyone!

/Joey

 

Joey,
that Rotosphere is probably as close as you can get in a convenient package (sans speakers and tube power amp).
It only uses a 12AX7 preamp tube, but HK have a long history of using those to simulate poweramp behaviour in quite a believable way (starting with their ancient Tubeman).
Enjoy that setup,
cheers,
Rhino

 

Hi. I'm a Mac OS 10.4 (Tiger) user with a new Intel machine. I've used and enjoyed B4 for quite awhile in a Mac G4 environment, but figured I needed to upgrade to B4 II for my new environment. I've noted spitfire's B4 II workaround, but wonder if anyone can speak to another possible solution for me...

Does original B4 work in a Mac-Intel environment with Tiger and/or Leopard? I'd guess it could, through the Rosetta "emulation," but would like to get a confirmation in advance. Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

I am having the same problem with distorsion in the highs with my swell pedal maxed....if I back off on the swell when playing in the high end, it avoids the crackling digital sound....how would one go about finding the audio priority setting on a mac (new user) in b4II stand alone. Please help as this has been an annoying issue as I play live 99.9% and I am very frustrated. Thanks!

 

How hard could it be considering it was fine in version 1?

and as for the "to be fair..." post:

who on earth wants a crackly digital distortion on a B3 more than once in a million times? I mean yeh, it would also be nice if they threw a ring modulator and a flanger in there too. But not at the expense of the soft analog overdrive that's an integral part of the Hammond B3 sound. I believe that's what this knob is supposed to do, and it completely fails.

Your post makes no sense.

Rob

 

K, have not been receiving the proper help/corrections from Native Instruments....my problems are not being solved. I own B4II and would like to try the original B4...but not have to pay for it. Do you think I should have to pay for the old program when I payed for the newest version and it is not performing? I could do demo, but i don't think I should have to. Had a version for my "pc" but am now running a mac....anyhelp for a link etc would be GREAT!

 

Concerning the poor B4II leslie sound, check out VB3 (http://www.soundfonts.it/?a=read&b=24). He seems to have gotten the Leslie sound right. Price is very reasonable and if you want to hang on to the B4II presets, the Leslie sound is available as a separate effects package. Plus out of the box, VB3 is 95% compatible with the B4D controller (vibrato type selection doesn't work well, however). NI may have waited too long to face up to the problem; the competition is filling the gap.


Dan

 

I don't recall anyone complaining too much about the Leslie sound of the B4II. It's been mostly the overdrive that's getting the bad rap.

I used the original B-4 for years. I switched to the B4-II for one big reason, it had tone controls. In my case, I use a real Leslie so I don't have any concern about the simulated one. Don't use it. Also, I don't use any overdrive. So again, I have my tone controls and the great core sound that the NI B4 (II) is known for. I don't even use presets. I turn it on, and change the drawbars with the B4D live just like I did on my Hammond.

I know there are many who use the presets, overdrive and simulated Leslie and those things are very important to them. However, I believe the only real complaint has been the overdrive and other than when running standalone, you can add overdrive effects after the fact in most DAW's and Kore. That's been talked about earlier in this thread.

Geoelectro

 

Hello geoelectro

My response was not clear. It is precisely the overdriven leslie sound I am referring to. Check out VB3. It is available as a demo. It would be interesting to hear what you think. I've yet to find an add-on VST distortion effect (I don't own Kore) that does the trick.

Dan

 

I just did an A/B comparison between B4 and B4 ll. WOW! What a huge difference in sound especially in the OverDrive.

The overall sound of B4 is way better, smoother, truer sounding than B4 ll.

Somebody somewhere at NI messed up real bad when they decided that the original B4 needed improving.

 

Since NI obviously follows a modular approach and they seem to rely on the GR algorithms for distortion nowadays it would probably mean a partial rewrite of B4-II to reuse the older, better B4 algos.
I wouldn't bet on that happening, it's more probable they're working on substantially improved algos for GR4 (they have to anyway, competition is extremely hard in this field) and let them trickle down to B4-III.
Just guessing ...
Rhino