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Beat Grids Are Still Shifting!

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR 3' started by cutmoney, Dec 13, 2005.

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  1. cutmoney

    cutmoney New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Okay, so there's no confusion or incredibly long description I just screen captured a short video clip of my beat grid problem. The following link is a short clip in H.264 (requires QuickTime) and is only 175k or so. Here it is:

    http://homepage.mac.com/cqualley/Traktor-Grid.mov

    Okay, now after watching that let me explain a couple of things. You will notice my BMP is at 100% and I set the beat grid perfectly on the beat. Just after moving the track a little bit, the beat grid shifts a quarter beat or so. This track is an AAC file that I recently imported and analyzed. However, this same exact problem happens regardless of the file format (AAC or MP3).

    If anybody happens to have a working solution to this problem, please let me know. This problem has been occurring ever since the 2.6 update (or so) and I would really, really like to see it fixed.
     
  2. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    It appears there is no beat marker applied to the track in the beginning thus Traktor has no Reference mark to work from. Ultimately what you have told traktor as it is it that the track tempo is 82.999 but gave it no definite reference point. Once your Beatmarker is set then the fact your grid is off could be an indication that the BPM of 82.999 is not correct.

    Have you tried running the track through BPM analyzer? Other factors to consider is whether the Track has a uniform tempo or whether the recording device pitch was stable during recording. Can you Email me the Track in MP3 format I would like to run it through some tools here and observe the behavior. If I can verifiy the behavior you are seeing I'll happily file a T3 bug report for you using the track as a case demonstration.

    Phil
     
  3. Charles Felicio

    Charles Felicio NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    98
    Would it be from ripped vinyl? If so, there's the problem.

    Anyway, sorry, but is it beat grid so necessary? Can't you pitch bend, or nudge the track when you feel it's phasing?

    I think it's not wise to rely on the need of such precision from software. It's all on your ears -- and what's between them.
     
  4. cutmoney

    cutmoney New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Well, the reason the BPM has that number is because I have applied, removed, and reapplied the beat grid numerous times to that (and other) songs. Once I got the beat grid in place initially, I adjusted the BPM until it matched the waveform throughout the entire track (the way you are supposed to set a beat grid). Now, as far as the problem being in that specific track, that is impossible.

    The reason is a) this is a brand new track hip-hop track which I am positive had the beats created digitally (and therefore accurate), b) I am able to get the beat grid to match the wave form throughout the entire track for a while (before it eventually shifts) so I know that the BPM is accurate, and c) this problem is by no means exclusive to this particular track; I have had the problem on numerous tracks and both AAC and MP3 file formats.

    Now, if you would still like me to send you the AAC file I would be more than happy to do so, however I am positive this particular audio file is not the source of the problem. In fact, I would also be happy to replicate the exact same problem on a different song (AAC or MP3).
     
  5. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066

    I'm sure you are right. If I can verify your behavior and we have a track as a hard sample, it possible to identify and fix the problem. If you can email it to me you can send it by www.YouSendit.com. I will work on confirming / verifying your behavior.

    Phil
     
  6. cutmoney

    cutmoney New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Yes, the beat grids are necessary. And really, what is the point of using software if you can't rely on its precision. Besides, "nudging" a track is somewhat hard to do when you are trying to sync up four decks at once. Let me tell you, if you're that good on vinyl that you can beat match four tables at once, let me know where you're playing next because I'd love to come watch you perform.

    Phil, I'll send you an email but I don't have your address. I'll have to send through Traktor, you will have to respond, then I'll reply back with the file attached (since there's no way to attach a file in the Traktor messaging).
     
  7. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    Messages:
    26,752
    first of all.... set a beatmarker at the beginning... go through the track to the end until the grid fits on the beats on the end.

    if this is impossible, you may have a track:

    - that is ripped from vinyl and therefore always drifts a bit
    - in case of hiphop a track with a sample that is just not round (try to beatgrid nine's *make or take* for example).
     
  8. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    From what I've seen so far, beatgrids are MORE necessary in T3 than in previous versions. I didn't beatgrid for my first year using Traktor. Now I'd be pretty busy continually nudging the pitch without them (how 20th Century!)
     
  9. tigv

    tigv New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Yep, happens to me all the time, sorry, but if it's that difficult to set a beatgrid for a track then why buy the software?

    Most if not all tracks that will be used will be vinyl rips, I grab mine from Beatport, being vinyl they will phase out after 5 to 15 seconds, setting an accurate beatgrid is critical to seamlessly mixing using this software so why are the forums filled with people who obviously have no idea how to execute this particular task which is in fact the only advantage to using computer based mixing software.
    I have spent a week trying to set grids and beatmatch tracks with no success, now I'm just angry and there are no step by step ' idiot guides ' on the forums or in any of the replies that address this issue in a logical fashion to the point of solving this problem with one answer.
    This thread should have been 2 posts long, the question and then a logical answer, I'm starting to think this software is buggy as hell and should be free or refunded.
     
  10. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    Beatgrids accurate or otherwise are highly recommended but are NOT essential in all cases. There are highly recommeneded in most cases, they are all but essential on 3 or 4 decks.
    Depending on the tracks you may or may not need them.

    Phase out after 5 seconds??? I dunno what you mix but thats not a problem I see. I get the feeling I'm not playing the same way some of you guys are. Setting an accurate beat maybe problematic to you but I don't find that to be the case. As for idyit guides, there have been countless threads describing mixing techniques here. That you cannot do it has me scratching my head but one or two ideas do come to mind. That there is no single asnwer to the question, should not be taken to mean there is no answer at all, is just that no single answer is always correct. Have a bevvy of tools and methods in yer tookit. Learn to use them all quickly and efficiently and properly. KNOW YOUR MUSIC!!! KNOW IT WELL!!!

    You can think the software is buggy as all hell, there are those would stand in your corner and agree, there are those like me that will disagree. That so few DJ's share your experience should indicate you are in the minority That should merely tell you more practice could help.

    I'll try to throw something together tonight on 3 or 4 decks that are as unprepared (ad-lib) as possible, to prove the point that grids are not essential and hours of prep is not mandatory. It will be far from perfect but it should illustrate the point! That you believe gridding is the *only* advantage to laptop DJing is a telling statement in and of itself. One wonders if this is your first ever week using Traktor at all? If that is the case then you simply have not given it enough time to learn to do it well.

    If you really feel you need your moneyback feel free to contact me by Email with your registration details and I will get you in touch with support who can sort you out.

    Phil
     
  11. TOBY C

    TOBY C Forum Member

    Messages:
    205
    When i first used Traktor dj studio i never set beatgrids because i was like some of these new guys that have problems setting beatgrids.....i had no patience and i didn't fully understand how to set them up correctly.......now i always use beatgrids and once you get the knack of how to set them up it is easy. granted i do come across the odd track that is more difficult to beatgrid than others....the reason for this is that traktors bpm calculation is way out and you end up with the problem of which way do i adjust the beatgrid......do i use the + or the - so what i do is neither.....i have a little program called bpm Resolver made by junosonic....and this is the best bpm analyzer out there......so if you are having problems setting beatgrids i would advize you guys to do a search and find this little tool.
     
  12. jmugu

    jmugu Forum Member

    Messages:
    210
    Yes, I have this problem with 2.6 and I think the problem is still in version 3.0. Haven't been playing long with 3.0 but simply the beat grids shift once adjusted. It's a random behaviour and certainly with some tracks the beat grids shift more times than others.

    In version 3 the round button doesn't work when I have set a beat grid so if I know is a round value like 125.0 and Traktor "thinks" is 124,45 I have to manually use the + button to adjust it to 125.00, annoying and time consuming.
     
  13. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    Messages:
    26,752
    if it's too hard to read a manual, then why answer you?!
    -> chapter 7.4 defining and using beatgrids

    ripping from vinyl leads to shifting. this is because your turntable shifts.
    if they're phasing out after 5-15 seconds, then you definitely made a mistake somewhere. maybe the tempo is just wrong.

    because there are still loads of guys who think they dont need to RTFM.

    my little jedi, you're once again wrong. there is a tutorial for 2.6 online (i'm just too lazy to do your work and find out the link) that could help you for t3 too.
    and chapter 7.4 includes a step-by-step instruction.

    yeh, once again the only answer should've been: RTFM - at least in your case.

    and for all others who think beatgrids are not necessary - they are and this is covered in the manual:


    Grid markers and Beat-Grids are an important tool to synchronize your music in TRAKTOR DJ Studio 3. The analysis of the track produces a BPM estimation that is not sufficiently precise to guarantee synchronous playback of two tracks over the duration of several minutes as required by TRAKTOR for fully exploiting the advanced Looping and Beat Jumping features.
     
  14. TOBY C

    TOBY C Forum Member

    Messages:
    205
    Native_girl......you really do have a way with words......i take it RTFM.....means Read The F**kin' Manual......LOL
    I do agree that if you are new to Traktor dj.....or any software you should at least read the manual once.....if you still have trouble read it again and once you understand how everything works.....and you still have trouble then post for help in the forum or contact support.

    Also for you guys who have problems setting beatgrids......send the track to me via yousendit.com to djpsychotrance at gmail.com i will beatgrid the problem track and upload it just to show you that the problem is not with traktor 3........if your track does have drift i will tell you (which means the problem is not traktor 3...it's your track). if not then don't dismiss traktor 3 as a crap piece of software.....as in my opinion it is not crap......it's the best dj software ever to be written.
     
  15. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    You should be able to beatgrid a track in under a minute (and usually in under 30 seconds); I've done it plenty of times while a track is playing in the other deck and I got just a little while to get this thing going. Nuffin to it -- once you understand it.
     
  16. jmugu

    jmugu Forum Member

    Messages:
    210
    My beat grids shifts but I have to agree with you ;)
     
  17. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    Messages:
    26,752
    WOW, one of the best ideas around (how annoying it wasnt mine, lol)!!!

    when i'm spinning software only i beatgrid on the fly, too, but i like to prepare my tracks, especially with hiphop stuff it's better to set the loops beforehand to avoid cutting the vocals strange or sth... ;-)
     
  18. cutmoney

    cutmoney New Member

    Messages:
    23
    There is no doubt that Traktor is the best DJ software on the market, but there are just some bugs that NI never seems to address and fix and I think this beat grid problem is a perfect example. Now, as I have explained already, this shifting problem is NOT related to the track. I have 10,000 tracks all encoded from digital sources (not vinyl) most of which are newer songs. The tracks that I receive weekly from my subscription service are brand new tracks with perfect (non-wavering) BPMs. I encode the tracks directly in to AAC through iTunes and use them in Traktor. Now, I can't possibly see how there could be a problem with the specific track if this problem occurs on a number of tracks in my collection.

    The reason that I see the beat grid issue as such a problem is because beat grids are more important than ever in T3. First of all, it just seem harder to lock in non-beat gridded tracks than in 2.5.3. And, with 4 decks, it's more important than ever if you want flawless mixes. That's why I think this is a big issue that NI needs to address in the upcoming update (whenever that will be).
     
  19. cutmoney

    cutmoney New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Okay, with the release of Traktor 3.0.1, the problem is still there. However, I finally narrowed it down to AAC tracks. You will notice in the screen movie I recorded, that now (after the update) T3 is treating AAC tracks really weird. The waveforms appear grayed out until you click around in the track, this isn't the case with MP3s. Furthermore, you will notice that the beat grid still shifts after moving around the track. Actually, it shifts a couple of times, one time it moves just a little to the left and then a good 1/8 or 1/4 beat to the right later.

    Link to the video (402k, H.264 Format - Requires New QuickTime):
    http://homepage.mac.com/cqualley/Traktor-Beat-Grid2.mov

    Let me emphasize again, I have tested this on a number of my AAC tracks all with the same result. In fact, this is a different track than was in my previous video. Although the MP3 tracks seem to behave normally, I probably have 2,000 tracks now encoded in AAC and I (along with may other people I'd assume) plan to continue encoding in AAC, so this is a major problem. Furthermore, all of my new (and most used) tracks are new and in the AAC format.
     
  20. TOBY C

    TOBY C Forum Member

    Messages:
    205
    @ cutmoney, this is most unfortunate.......personally i would never use the new formats that Traktor is supposed to support........i still use mp3 files encoded by Lame at 320kbps constant bitrate.......i would never re-encode my whole music collection to AAC unless i had fully tested Traktor to see how reliable it handles AAC files.
    If you have noticed weird behaviour with Traktor playing AAC files......then contact support.....or contact Phil on the forum.

    Regards.
     
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