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beat mapping tru acid

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR 3' started by dj mutley, Jun 25, 2008.

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  1. dj mutley

    dj mutley NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    702
    i use acid from sony and would like to know if i beatmap a song or songs and save the reuse them in traktor
    would it be the same like using traktor to grid?
    ive heard of djs using other programs to accomplish this

    also what other programs are djs using ?
     
  2. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

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    3,109
    I don't know how beatmapping works in Acid.

    <goes to use Google to find answer>

    Looks like it's similar to Ableton's warping.

    The answer is NO. Traktor does not warp, or stretch, your songs. You use Beat Grid to find and set a tempo, it will not alter the wave form like beatmapping and warping will.

    I use Ableton Live
     
  3. dj mutley

    dj mutley NI Product Owner

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    702
    i think that traktor alters music when gridding
    and saves a file or how would it remember next time you loaded same song

    i beleive that if other programs streached music and save it might work but unfortunately acid does not alter song just keeps file to alter music when loading.

    hope im wrong cause gridding is such a pain tn the @ss
    //////////we need a easier way to do this////////////
     
  4. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

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    26,753
    no, traktor does not alter music (warp, stretch or whateva).
     
  5. John Alexander

    John Alexander Forum Member

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    243
    What kind of tunes are you playing?
     
  6. palaeo-tech

    palaeo-tech NI Product Owner

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    87
    It does time stretch actually and it does it in real time. That's essentially what the beat grid is for, it gives the timestretching algorithms a reference point. If you pay good attention whilst listening it's possible to hear it at work too. The phase vocoder algorithm introduces a phasing/flanging sort of sound, as for the others . . . . well they degrade the audio fairly considerably.

    As you might be able to tell, I don't use any of them anymore. Personally I find I prefer the sound of the pitch shifting to time stretching, it feels much more natural.

    That's why Traktor needs a granular stretching algorithm like Live or ACID! No reason why it can't be implemented easily as NI already have the technology in Reaktor and both of the aforementioned programs handle timestretching in similar fashion to beatgridding.
     
  7. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

    Messages:
    3,109
    I think you are wrong, you are assuming too much, and your first 2 sentences contradict each other.

    You're saying it time stretches in real time, and then you say that beat grids are used by time stretching algorithms a reference point.

    If you beat map a song, and you don't turn on key lock, your song isn't 'altered' by any means. At all.
     
  8. dj mutley

    dj mutley NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    702
    when you beAtmap a song the song is made to go faster or slower for a bit from reference piont to point to match depending what you needed to keep timing.
    although the original song isnt altered at the end theres a memory file of
    what was manipulated saved,so you dont go tru same beatmapping every time you load song,am i wrong ?




    im gonna load a song in acid and beatmap it perfect save as diff name
    then reload newly named song and not beatmap it and line it up side by side to beatmapped original song and compare beats to see if it works

    if it does its on and crackin
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2008
  9. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

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    3,109
    The beatgrid is just a grid to force traktor to make sure it has the correct bpm.

    You cannot 'stretch' the grid. What I mean is that you cannot stretch certain parts of the grid like you can in Ableton. It's all or nothing. If the tempo is not equal across the song, then beatgridding is useless.
     
  10. dj mutley

    dj mutley NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    702
    the grid dont streach the song does.
     
  11. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

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    3,109
    Again.

    Traktor does NOT alter the wav files.
     
  12. palaeo-tech

    palaeo-tech NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    87
    Not permanently altered mate but altered nonetheless so there is nothing wrong about my comment. Even if the key lock is inactive, when a track is pitched up or down it's still by nature being stretched. The Beatgrid allows Traktor to know where to stretch the files in a similar way to warp markers in Live and for that matter, myriad other studio software packages which have time stretching facilities. This is why in either case it's important to take this step seriously, in the studio a poorly warped/stretched loop will cause havoc with a groove and timing in the same fashion as a tune in Traktor which hasn't been gridded properly.

    Does that make more sense of it for you?

    Take this general rule: If you have a tune which requires several grid markers and still refuses to conform to a usable beatgrid then it's worth destructively altering the track by time stretching and rendering the file using Live/Acid. If you think that's BS then read the TS/T3 manuals, it's all there.
    ---
    FYI pitch shifting with a conventional turntable or DJ CD player is time stretching so maybe relate that to what you're doing with T3.
     
  13. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

    Messages:
    3,109
    Of course it is...but it is stretched across the board, and not just in a certain part. Once again, it is not a permanent change!
    You are not correct. Ableton's warping feature alters the wav file permanently. So if you take a rock song, where the beats are not in perfect 4/4 (let's say due to the human factor), you can warp the wav file and turn it into a perfect 4/4 timing wav. YOU CANNOT ACCOMPLISH THIS IN TRAKTOR!

    Beatgrid does not tell Traktor to stretch a file. At all. Period. It just helps Traktor find the bpm.

    You aren't being serious right now by asking me this, right?

    You totally contradict your statement above. You state that Beatgrid allows you to stretch the file the same as warp markers, now you are saying what I've been saying this whole time...you need to use Live to warp the track first.

    Please don't tell me to read the manual. I Implore you to read section 9.5 of the T3 manual (dunno the section in TS).

    Wav files are not altered in Traktor or TS when you use Beatgrids.
     
  14. buggles

    buggles NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    320
    You two are arguing about two different things. One is saying that by changing the speed, wether using time stretching or pitch shifting, you are changing the playback and the samples are being spread out or compressed globally and therefore it IS temp. altered (which is not what the original discussion is about hence the confusion)

    The other is saying that you cannot stretch or compress selectively within a track in order for it to hold perfect time (in traktor)
     
  15. palaeo-tech

    palaeo-tech NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    87
    A: I never said there was a permanent change to the tracks when stretched in Traktor, only that they are altered during playback.

    B: Live permanently does this ONLY if you render the file. What do you think a warp file is? It's exactly the same as stripe data in Traktor and therefore as much a reference file as the latter.

    C: I know beatgrids don't alter the file permanently, they are a reference and nothing more which I've been saying all along but they DO tell Traktor how and where musical measures occur which is EXACTLY the same as warp markers in Live.

    D: HOWEVER time stretching in Traktor isn't as flexible as that in Live which is precisely why when you have a track which has erratic timing it's wiser to pump it through Live to PERMANENTLY clean it up by setting well laid warp markers and DESTRUCTIVELY rendering the file.

    Don't get so worked up about it either mate, the principals of it are simple. No need to be aggressive, just take the time to read everything properly and you'll understand that what I'm saying is right.
     
  16. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

    Messages:
    3,109
    A. I know. Sorry to confuse you with my response. I was just reiterating my point

    B. True as well...I should have written that, I just 'assumed'. That's my fault.

    C. This is where you're off base with regards to warp markers and beatgrids.

    http://www.ableton.com/pages/tips/2004_05

    "So what is the difference between grid markers and Warp Markers? Well, the main difference is that you can move the location of a Warp Marker, but the grid markers are automatically placed by Live. As you make and move Warp Markers around in your clip, the grid markers will evenly distribute themselves between those Warp Markers. As you can see below, when a Warp Marker is moved from (a) one location to (b) another, the neighboring grid markers (c) move (d) farther apart or (e) closer together. Try experimenting with moving these around to familiarize yourself with this relationship."

    You cannot place the equivalent of 'warp markers' from Abelton in Traktor.

    I believe you are thinking of GRID MARKERS...the markers that evenly distribute themselves between WARP MARKERS.

    The principles are NOT the same.

    I don't know how to be any more clearer on this. You cannot 'warp' tracks in Traktor. You cannot accomplish the same thing as 'warping' a file in Ableton in Traktor. You cannot place a 'warp marker' in Traktor. (I'm trying to cover all the bases here)

    I don't mean to sound so worked up, but it's frustrating to try and explain this to someone who obviously understands the different software and applications out there! You're a smart guy!


    Just to recap:
    The question that started this thread was if you can accomplish the same thing in Traktor that you can in Acid with beatmap (or Ableton).

    The answer is "No, you can't."

    Your response was the fact that Traktor DOES time stretch. Of course it does...when you pitch up and down or use keylock - but those are holistic stretches...all encompassing. But you cannot accomplish the same thing as a beatmapping in Acid or warping in Ableton with Traktor.

    I don't even know how we are still having this conversation.
     
  17. palaeo-tech

    palaeo-tech NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    87
    We're still having this conversation because you're confused not I. The fact of the matter is that both programs evidently do the same kind of thing in roughly similar ways but use different algorithms and have differing levels of flexibility with regards to their time stretching engines and their accuracy thereof.

    Take another look at the link you sent and tell me that there aren't striking similarities n that and the way that you'd set a grid in Traktor. The fact is that a warp marker is exactly the same as a grid marker in Traktor as it forces the redistribution of a grid intended to guide the software as to the musical structure of the song/track. Live just does it alot better really.
     
  18. Deft_Skratchworx

    Deft_Skratchworx Forum Member

    Messages:
    26
    The main difference is that all individual markers in Ableton can be re-positioned relative to one another, whereas it appears that Traktor just lays down a fixed tempo guide where all spacing is equal (which like everyone says, is kind of useful if the track has absolutely perfect timing - but not amazingly helpful otherwise).
    The approach Ableton takes is fine for synchronizing loops and tracks perfectly together, but I can't see how it would work when you may need to offset individual tracks differently for dj'ing (i.e. it would be quite restrictive).

    I've always dreamed of a hybrid Traktor Scratch / Ableton piece of software where you have full vinyl control (and your warp points are disabled), but the software reacts quickly enough to match up your tracks when you have stopped touching the vinyl (providing you can drop the beats close enough together yourself to give it the best chance possible!).
     
  19. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

    Messages:
    3,109
    :S

    I can't help you man.

    You can place 1 BeatGrid start point in Traktor. That's it.

    You can place an unlimited amount of warp markers in Live, and move them as you see fit, individually.

    If you think this is the same, or strikingly similar, so be it.

    If you place one warp marker, and then change the grid markers, then this is the only way Live is similar.



    Are you even trying to answer the guy's question? I'm having a hard time understand what you're trying to accomplish here.
     
  20. dj mutley

    dj mutley NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    702
    ok live has warp markers which you can move

    what about w/acid the markers dont move the song does

    and thanx people.
     
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