Best host for KK (live keyboard playing)

Hi,
Since Komplete Kontrol itself does not allow creating multis or adding effects, I am looking for the best host for using Komplete Kontrol on stage as a keyboard player.

Up till now I have used:
- Good old Kore
Pros:This is still my favorite. Very stable, and you can create the most creasy complex setups with plug-ins and hardware. And It can be controlled with my good old Kore 2 controller
Cons: The automatic track focus feature does not work. Of course you can use the instance button, but it is not very user friendly. Also: how long will it continu working? I am very glad that it still does, but I fear every OSX update.
- Mainstage
Pros: It works, and is probably more future proof than Kore.
Cons: I do not like it as much as Kore. Also, the automatic track focus does not work either (which is a bit strange, since it works in Logic and Garageband). Also it is not as stable as Kore is. So, I rather use Kore as long as it works.
- Garageband
Pros: It does the automatic track focus.
Cons: I don't like its sandboxing "feature", where I have to rescan each time to get the library up to date. Also, it does not allow layering ( can be solved using the Kore plugin). But the major problem is its stability. It somehow crashes quite easy when using multiple instances of Komplete Kontrol.

So therefore I am looking for an alternative. As far as I can see, the obvious choices are:
- Maschine
Pros: probably the best integration with KK. Not only the sounds can be browsed, but also the effects, etc.
Problem: you can't buy the software stand alone. You need to buy a Maschine controller as well for at least 350 Euro (why, I already have KKS?). Furthermore: I am not sure if the workflow is well suited for a live keyboard player. It seems to be more oriented to production. Last, minor point: as far as I understand, it cannot sent program change messages to external gear, unless you play a sequence.
- Ableton Live, Cubase
Pro's: You can buy the software only. The cheapest variant of 79,- Euro (ableton) or 99,- Euro (Cubase) will probably do well.
Con's: Integration with KK is probably less as with Maschine. Also here the workflow is not especially made for live keyboard players (like Kore and MainStage).
- Logic
Pro's: You can buy the software only.
Con's: There is only a 200,- Euro version. Furthermore see cons Live and Cubase
- Other Daws
The automatic track focus feature is not supported.

So, this is all very technical. I would like to here user experiences: what do you use, and how does it work for you. Are my concerns with respect to the workflow right, or do you think there is nothing to worry about. Is the extra money spent on a Machine controller well worth the money, or should I go along with the cheap Ableton live. Please, let me here your advice. Thanks!

 

An excellent alternative will exist fairly soon, as a port to Mac OS of Cantabile 3 is in the works.
Not ready yet, but when it is, that's the one.

Terry

 

Will automatic trackfocus work?

 

By the way, Maschine with controller can better be compared with Ableton push or Nektar Panorama with Cubase or Logic.

 

I doubt that - that particular feature is one coordinated with Native Instruments and the NKS implementation of the host.

There are no "tracks" in Cantabile, anyway... so not sure what you mean. You'll still need to use your "Instance" button, if that's what you mean.

Terry

 

Yes, thats what I mean. That (using instance button) is very anoying when playing live. The NKS sdk is free, so the Cantabile developpers could add it. This might be good idea anyway: what if Cantabile would show splits via the lightguide of the KKS!

 

The NKS SDK is free? I did not know that - in fact, I thought it was something you "partnered" with NI to access. Do you know where to get the SDK for free?

Anyway, even though Brad develops quite aggressively and fast, this has not been on his plate yet. But one can put in requests via his Trello page for features -- and it is remarkable how quickly he turns out things!

Terry

 

I was under the impression that it was free, but you are probably right: you have to become a partner, whatever that means. I thought that it was included in the STEMS sdk, but I am not sure about that either. The information is a bit confusing.

 

You could try Freestyle:

http://www.newsonicarts.com/html/freestyle.php

not sure if it does the automatic track focus thing either but it's being actively developed and the dev is very responsive

(he is also the person who originally developed Kore)

 

Now that sounds promissing (being a huge fan of kore). Since it runs as VST, is it possible to run it in KOMPLETE KONTROL and save settings as 'sound'? This would be a huge a huge step forward. I can run Kore within KOMPLETE KONTROL, but KOMPLETE KONTROL won't let me save it as a sound.

 

Freestyle sounds great! I wonder how long that has been out...

I use Live 9 and an S-61 to control Kontakt and Omnisphere. It is surprisingly retarded and limiting BUT I LOVE it! Using 1 instance of KK, I tag my current favorites "Gig1, Gig2". This helps to keep things small, simple, accessible. I highly recommend the Novation Launch Control ( https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LaunchCont ) It sits perfectly on either the L or R side of the keyboard (hmmmm i just had the thought to get a 2nd one !) I use the 8 pads to control Live's Looper and the knobs to control track volumes and effect parameters inside Live's tracks.

My original plan was to have Omni on 1 track and KK on another. But when navigating between these 2 tracks, any other armed tracks I am recording in Live get un-armed. So no layering! I will look again into a way to have these VST's on separate tracks and still make everything work.

I used Maschine before S61 to have access to the 8 macros. It was too hard to reach on a 2nd tier. I do love the KK preset browsing for the most part.

I bought Kore2 at one point, never unboxed it. I felt Kore 3 was coming and I wanted it bad. I sold it unopened a few months later just before the discontinuation was announced. That was a pretty sad day. I have always been envious of those who love their Kore.

MainStage is starting to look better and better!

An interesting phenomena so far with NI and their preset controllers. KK feels like abandonware or at least lowest priority at NI. It must be a confusing market. Studio or Live use? Piano-organ market or synth market? But it is stable enough for me to use live. And the sounds are inspiring. I use it minimally for ambient pads and pianos. I cannot imagine some cover-band keyboardist trying to make this work.

 

thanks for sharing!

 

So I downloaded the trial version of Freestyle, and opened the plug-in version within KOMPLETE KONTROL. It looks very promising! I can save setups as sounds. The Macro control names are taken over by KOMPLETE KONTROL. So it enhances KOMPLETE KONTROL in many ways:
- Possible to create layers, splits and add effects
- Possible to assign multiple parameters to one knob
- Limit the range of the knob

So, this is looking very good indeed. The only thing it does not is show the split on your light guide. If that would be possible, it would be a KOMPLETE miracle.

 

I have also looked at GigPerformer. This is more like MainStage and does not run as plug-in. I can't see any advantage over MainStage. So it is primarily a good choice for non mac-users. Otherwise I think you are beter off with MainStage, since it is a lot cheaper and you will get Alchemy!

 

What about GigPerformer?
I am using it since release and it is very reliable and flexible.
And it runs on Mac and Windows.
It is worth to check it.

 

@thePostman
Advantage of GigPerformer over Mainstage is resource usage.
In predictive load you can build a huge gig with lots of patches and your cpu or ram will never be killed.
And the killer feature OSC!
I am using it with Ableton Live and M4L.
I can control everything I need from widgets sending and receiving OSC commands.
I was not able to do similar things with mainstage.

 

@pianopaul
Thanks for the info. I am not familiar with OSC, but will check it out. Low resource usage is a good thing anyway.

I have tried Maschine, but I have returned it. It would not support aftertouch. This was for me just unacceptable.

Currently I am checking out Mainstage. With Scripter it starts to become as flexible as good old Kore. I have ordered a Nektar Panorama controller. Together it seems a nice replacement for Kore. I will let you know my findings.

I have installed Mac OS Sierra, and that seems the end for the Kore controller (the software still runs fine). So a replacement is starting to become necessary.