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Breath controller setup using Kontakt 5

Discussion in 'KONTAKT' started by midilance, Jun 13, 2017.

  1. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    194
    I just bought a TEControl Midi Breath and Bite Controller 2. I want to use it with Session Horns Pro and other such libraries. Is there anyone around who might be able to help me make sense of the process?
     
  2. MarioD

    MarioD NI Product Owner

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    315
    Although this video is for CC11 I substituted CC2 for CC11 and it worked perfectly for my Wind Controller:

     
  3. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

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    194
    I deleted it. Thanks. That was a dumb thing for me to do. Now you can delete your helpful suggestion which also still contains my phone
    #.

    Hi Mario, would it be possible for us to speak on the phone? I'm on Facebook.. Lance Abair. We could swap phones using messenger.

    Mario, it's late and I just saw part of the video. It looks good though. I'll check it out tomorrow. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2017
  4. airflamesred

    airflamesred NI Product Owner

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    600
    I think this might be simpler than you think. If session horns is using the mod wheel just set the TEC to transmit CC1 as oposed to CC2 which I think is the default.
     
  5. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

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    194
    Hi Mario,
    I think I did as you suggested. Here is a screen grab of what I did. When I did this I then tried to play the sax by hitting a note on the keyboard and blowing. I got nothing.
    What do you think? I'm using Kontakt 5.6.8.
     

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  6. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    194
    After I had no luck so far I did what I saw in the video. I noticed a modulator above with a midi cc 103 so I added it. All of a sudden i could strike a key and hear nothing until I blew into the controller. I noticed though that it seemed as if i was articulating whichever velocity layered sample I had triggered from the keyboard velocity. Will this not work with multisamples by velocity like the keyboard triggers.
     

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  7. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Well-Known Member

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    19,938
    No, it will not work like that. It's a much more involving thing to do, which kind of cannot be shoehorned into a library if the library wasn't made with that in mind.

    airflamesred was right though. You don't have to modify this library internally at all! Do this: Load Session Horns Pro Performance patch, go to Control tab, and for Dynamic Control, select MIDI CC 11.

    Now all you need is convert your breath controller's MIDI CC #2 to MIDI CC #11 instead. To do this, use the Transformer multiscript. To load it, press the KSP button on the top right of Kontakt's interface (you need to be OUTSIDE of instrument edit mode, so, you should see instrument's graphical interface instead), then go to Preset->Factory->Transform->Transformer. Now set the first controller to 2 and second controller to 11. Job done.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  8. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    194
    I'm
    EvilDragon. We're getting closer. I'm not sure but here is a pic of what I did from your advice. So far, it's not working but I could have missed or assumed something. Let me know what you think. Also, it would be immensely helpful for me to discuss this with you on a phone. What about that?
    Lance Abair
     

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  9. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,938
    You're doing it wrong, I told you NOT to be in instrument edit mode. What you're showing in the picture IS the instrument edit mode. So exit that and go through the steps I mentioned. Best load the original Session Horns Pro patch that has none of your modifications.

    I am not available via phone.

    Take a look at this picture and follow my steps as numbers 1-6.

    upload_2017-6-16_10-17-33.png
     
  10. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    194
    First of all, thanks for working on this with me. I've had Kontakt almost since the beginning but have never looked under the hood until now so I'm pretty dull about this stuff. Here is a pic of what I wound up with.
    I have checked to see that DP sees it. I have set DP to multirecord mode and have created a midi track for the breath controller. So far I am unable to get this working. I am expecting it to work much like the old DX7s with their breath controller where you play a note on the keyboard and hear nothing until you blow into the breath controller. That isn't happening yet. If my pic looks right to you I may have to get in touch with TEControl in Sweden for more fun. Any other suggestions?
    Lance Abair
     

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  11. airflamesred

    airflamesred NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    600
    OK, The keyboard is going to control the note and the TEC will control whatever you need it too. Almost everything I use I manipulate CC1, CC11 is optional but personally I don't like it. I do have a TEC and whilst a lot of folks like it, I struggle with it and opt for adding detail by a second pass with midi data or drawing midi data in.
    If you already play a blown instrument then the transition to the TEC should be fairly simple.
    My suggestion to you is to open the TEC interface and set the CC to 1 and try it out. If it's not responding as you expect change it to CC11 or adjust the curve.
     
  12. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,938
    You need to merge the MIDI output from your MIDI controller and MIDI output from TEC. So I suppose, you need to send MIDI from the TEC track to the track with Kontakt.
     
  13. MarioD

    MarioD NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    315
    Have you tried this using a DAW? I know in Sonar you can set the MIDI input to OMNI so Kontakt can receive data from two different sources for any patch, creating a MIDI merge. For example I have used this when one person is playing keys and another person is using sliders to change sounds; this works great on a Hammond organ patch.

    Set both your keyboard to MIDI channel 1, assign CC2 to your breath controller and use the configuration that I first suggested. Did this work? If not try ED configuration.

    Good luck and lets us know how you make out.
     
  14. puremusic

    puremusic NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    Hey there, nice to see another TEC breath controller user! Just bought Komplete the other day, I'll download Session Horns and try this out too. I've mostly just used the controller for the SWAM violin so far, be nice to see what else it might work with.

    Ah, this is rather fun playing with the breath controller and the session horns. Very nice! Glad this topic came up.

    I just opened the TEC Breath Controller Utility program, set MIDI CC to 11, and off it went controlling the expression with breath. Very fun. Sounds great!

    Ah yes I did go click control in Session Horns and click the Expression CC #11 button there too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2017
  15. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    194
    Pure Music, how are you coming along with this? I'm still out in the cold working on the input I've received. There is something that I am apparently missing but I'm not giving up. Is your breath also controlling velocity to switch the layered samples?

    I just set up one midi track for K5 with Session Horns Tenor Sax and another midi track for the TEC controller. Followed all instructions so far and am still hearing a note play when I press a key on the keyboard albeit it's a low velocity sample. I can blow into the TEC and get the volume of the note to change with my articulation. What I am not getting so far is:
    1. The tenor sound quiet when depressing a key until I blow into the TEC
    2. I am not hearing the velocity-layered samples respond to the softer to harder blowing on the TEC
    I hope I'm getting close but this is a no-go with me if the velocity layered samples are not all in play.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2017
  16. puremusic

    puremusic NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    Sure buddy, let me give you a hand. It's working fine over here. Here are two screenshots of how it is set up and working for me.

    If there's any other setup window you need me to take a screenshot of just ask.
     

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  17. puremusic

    puremusic NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    Oh I see, that is how you want the setup. Hmm.

    I really don't have much experience setting up Session Horns or using Kontakt, as I mentioned. I normally have so far only used my breath controller with the SWAM violin, and am only now branching out.

    I'm not sure you can get everything you're thinking about here, however, have you tried using the single articulation patch instead of the performance patch?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2017
  18. midilance

    midilance NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    194
    Well, I'm working on this problem, talking with a bunch of people. I hope I find a great answer. If not, the TEC goes back.
     
  19. puremusic

    puremusic NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    Could you tell me more about exactly what you want to do using the breath controller response wise with the VST?

    I'm interested in hearing how it works out and what you learn. It sounds like you're having a hard time, sorry to hear it! Normally breath controllers are a lot of fun!

    For what it's worth this is how I see it, as I'm a novice breath controller user here, I may be wrong about some of this, do tell me any mistakes, but as far as I know:

    My Session Horns starts off on key press too, but then respond to breath afterwards volume wise, or if you set single articulation, when you hit the key if you start blowing into it before. This seems working as designed? Have you tried working with different instruments with the breath controller than Session Horns?

    VSTs have to be designed to some degree to respond to breath controllers, if they don't respond as you expect, I would normally consider the VST to be the issue. If you're wondering if your breath controller is sending out the proper MIDI messages, there's a program that shows exactly what messages are being sent by MIDI, so you can monitor your equipment that way, very nice but. .. Hmm but you don't even need that for the TEC, the utility program does that sufficiently. As long as its utility program shows those little circles moving up and down when you blow into it, tilt, etc. it's working, and there's visual feedback. You can also adjust the sensitivity, etc. with sensor min/max.

    For example, I use the SWAM violin with the breath controller more often than other violins, because it's designed for breath controllers due to being modeled rather than sampled. I do think though VST designers are making their instruments more flexibly than in the past so this may be less of an issue, but breath control still is a niche, and so for a lot of articulation control it's still about using modeled rather than sampled instruments, like SWAM, WIVI's brass, synthesizers, etc. SWAM and WIVI are designed with breath controllers in mind. The trade off with modeled instruments vs. sampled is, flexibility of control vs. quality of sound.

    I normally adjust the Sensor Max in the TEC Utility down a bit, so I don't have to use as much lung power to control the instruments.

    If you're thinking you can switch from staccato/legato/grace note/trills samples just by blowing with the Session Horns and nothing else, I don't think that's how that particular VST is designed? Does it work that way with a mod wheel on expression instead of breath? Instead you have to click to change that with the mouse, to choose the different series of samples. If you assign your mod wheel or a slider, etc. to 11, instead of the TEC, and it's the same result, that would be an example of it being the VST.

    Well I am showing off my ignorance a bit here, but hopefully some of this info helps put it all in context for you.

    The short summary being, the TEC Utility program is your friend for showing if it works or not and setting sensitivity/channel output, I run it everytime. And some instruments are designed to work with breath controllers and some aren't, so some work with them better than others.

    I have a lot of fun with mine! Hope you will soon too!
     
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