Bye Bye Pro 53 - Please can we have a replacement Reaktor .ens?

It would be nice if this was done

 

There is always Arturia Prophet V, there's a new version coming out soonish as well.

 

Yeah but both versions aren't nearly as close to the real thing

 

I do have the Soniccore Profit 5 which runs on Scope boards - that is the most realistic

 

...couldn't the Pro-53 engine be included into a future version of Massive? They already had some similarities, but I never managed to fully emulate my Pro-53 patches in Massive. My naive imagination is that the filter (which is also in other programs like GR, Kontakt & Reaktor) could be implemented and so could the oscillators; Massive also has unison & detuning and nobody really cared about the Pro-53 fx section, so the remaining question would be if the poly-mod section, which is the most interesting part of the Pro-53 could be implemented into Massive.

Dear NI-devs & executives, please consider this option as there are a lot of people who don't want to see this synth dying. There are also countless presets for the Pro-53 that could be imported into Massive then. And it would give the user what they wanted - an enhanced Pro-53 with a fatter sound and Massive users a lot of new sounds...

 

It'd be nice if they started doing things like that -- but I really doubt that NI cares that much about their customers.

 

They will only do something if there are pages and pages of replies within a few days which is very unlikely

1) NI should put the poly-mod section into Massive and allow import of old Pro-53 patches OR
2) release a reaktor ensemble that is a copy of the Pro-53 - after all they already have the filter - surely it can't be that difficult for a pro Reaktor builder to knock up a copy

 

Yes, but at which price? SCOPE is $$$.

 

I'll probably stop upgrading Komplete, since I use Pro-53 and B4 more than the other instruments. I have the Arturia Prophet, but their interface seems like a poor port from something else.

 

The price for SCOPE and probably XITE-1 is not only for the massive amount of plugins included in the package.
The price is for the DSP hardware and for the latency free audio-midi interface too, which is PCIe in the case of XITE-1,- and it comes w/ hi-end mic-pres, balanced and unbalanced line and Hi-Z inputs, balanced and unbalanced outputs, 2x ADAT, AES/EBU, SPDIF I/Os and 2 SC´s Z-Link I/Os, a variant of optical ADAT, but 96KHz SR w/ both Z-Link ports (no SMUX like ADAT).
In addition there´s XTDM in near future which allows stacking of several XITE-1 units.

Actually I´m testing a old SCOPE professional (PCI) card w/ a ton of plugin types,- mixers, FX, ot´s of synths,- it´s a amazing system.
I´m running the card and software on an ASUS P4T-E Rambus mainboard w/ 2 GB of RAM and a 2.4GHz Pentium IV northwood proc. and I see ZERO cpu load playing synths like MINIMAX and PRODYSSEY in realtime and latency free.
This would also work w/ a PIII Tualatin 1.4GHz and 1 GB of RAM and SCOPE 4.5.

It´s the closest platform compared to hardware and some of the 3rd party devices are dead on, John Bowen´s ZARG devices and some from ADERN p.ex..

SC XITE-1 has 10x the power of the SCOPE professional card and I only can imagine what´s possible w/ XITE-1.

SCOPE will not replace every VSTi but almost any synth type VSTis, VST-Mixers and FX and in a better sonic quality. Also B2003 organ emulation is worth a try.

I´ll buy this system as soon I can afford it and if SCOPE v5 isn´t a release candidate anymore which I hope happens end of this year.
I also hope for full XTC mode and VDat functionality in the final version of SCOPE v5.
Well,- SCOPE cannot do everything,- anyone who needs acoustic- and electric piano emulations (like me) as well as orchestral stuff will need a great VSTi sampler in addition which might be KONTAKT.

K.B.
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Same here !

Pro53 and B4 were THE instruments which made me a NI customer in the past.
I know think about leaving NI,- sorry.

K.B.

 

Pro12 can run on:

http://www.use-audio.com/plugiator.htm

 

Do you mean John Bowen's ProPh@t Plus (with the SSM, CEM and even Moog filters) or the Sonicore Pro 12? (just SSM) - both are excellent and I have both myself (and the ProWave with the Waldorf filters and modular version) - all are miles better than Pro 53 (although it does have its charms)

 

I know what Scope is about. It's not native, and that's a big difference. Of course it sounds better than both Arturia's and NI's efforts, but still, not anyone can afford to have Scope or XITE-1. That's why it's too bad that Pro-53 was discontinued, and probably won't get x64 installer, which is a SHAME.

On the other hand, if it works well with Jbridge, that's ok anyways ;P

 

Yes. it is, and that´s what makes it interesting.

Well,-right,- but have in mind you have to upgrade your computer all the time w/ the native stuff, but don´t have to do it w/ the DSP based stuff and that saves a lot of money.
In addition,- think about what high quality/lo-latency audio-/MIDI interfaces w/ micpre´s included cost from other manufacturers and what you probably have invested already just only in computer hardware and your external audio-/MIDI gear.

IMO, it´s time to think about investing in more future proof gear, native software products never will be.
In my case, if I decide to sell my external midi interface, my converter and soundcard as well as all my VST based stuff, I´m pretty sure this will make a SC XITE-1 affordable for me, having all the synth stuff, mixers and FX necessary just only w/ the included software packages of SCOPE v5.
It´s all there,- Minimoog, Prophet and organ emulations as well as wavetable synths, modulars and samplers, hi quality FX devices and amazing models of mixing consoles and dynamics devices,- latency free and running on "outdated" machines offering a PCIe slot.
You don´t need to buy a PCIe interface card because it´s included and there´s also a PCIe cardbus solution in the pipeline.

I decided to make the upgrade of Propellerhead Record for Reason users which is very cheap,- so I will have my recording application and additional native instruments and FX rack including THOR, which is a very amazing half modular synth. Drums, Piano, Bass and Abbey Road Refills for Reason are dead on for me and have small footprint on my drives and lots of free Refills are also very good.
In addition, I own a large AKAI sample library for the SCOPE samplers,- I´m done.

I plan to sell my VST hosts also.

For VSTis, I´ll choose some kind of cheap VST host like Chainer and rewire it to Record/Reason,- or Bidule to run OPX Pro and GSi VB3 and possibly Massive, because I own a separate licence in addition to my KOMPLETE versions.

All this will run fine on a Intel socket 775 dual core machine w/ PCIe which I´m setting up actually.

I´m definitely tired of incompatibility probs w/ VST and visiting dozens of support forums and so on, it´s wasting my lifetime and kills my creativity to work this way.
I´m really pissed off of always discontinued native software I invested money for in the past.

I learned my lesson w/ native VST,- it sucks !

K.B.

 

I like the idea of a really authentic Pro-53 Reaktor .ens. I had the same thought this morning. Seems like a respectful and fun way to close-out a classic VSTi.

However, even though Reaktor 5 has Pro-52 oscillators and filters on offer, I doubt very much that it would be possible to replicate Pro-53 1:1 sonically in Reaktor. . . and yes, loading Pro-53 patches would not be possible either.

There are a few Prophet-flavored attempts in the Reaktor library already, but (good as some of them are) they sort of highlight the fact that replicating the Pro-53 sound is a lot more involved than just building a synth with identical architecture using the included Pro-52 parts.

Why bother to preserve the Pro-53 sound specifically? Here are my thoughts:

Pro 53 was the only Prophet-flavored VSTi/AU that didn't require some inconvenient and potentially deal-breaking piece of additional hardware (be it a dongle, DSP card, etc). A Reaktor version would have the same benefit. Not needing additional hardware is HUGE for me.

In this day and age Pro-53 was no longer the best at emulating the prophet, but it still had a sound that lots of my friends (far more accomplished musicians than myself, and able to use afford any VSTi they wanted) put to great effect on a lot of their recordings - - recordings released this year on great labels no less. Pro-53 had it's own sound, a pleasing character, low cpu footprint and an interface that was as uncomplicated, logical, and appropriate for it's context as the Dave Smith original. . .and that's far more important than how good it was at being a sonic imitation of the original.

So is Pro-53 just a Prophet V faker who's time has run out, or was it a unique sound tool unto itself worthy of preservation? I vote for preservation, but I'm just one voice.

Would anyone else make use of a Pro-53 legacy .ens?

 

...and that would be the point with a Reaktor version of the Pro-53. And that's why I'd be very unhappy with this solution (btw. - there aren't a lot of people who know this ensemble here, are there? http://co.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=userlibrary&type=0&ulbr=1&plview=detail&patchid=3870).

The Pro-53 was the first synth I've bought and I've constantly used it over the years. I have also bought serveral soundsets over the time - 980 commercial presets in total (Easysounds Electrix, Easysounds Pro53 Trance & Atmos, Mig Music Pro53 Sounds Collection Volume 1, Richard Barbieri Signature Sounds, Soundburst Knopolis, Vengeance-Sound Pro53 Prophecy Soundset), not to mention the countless free ones I have found in various forums (and my own, too - I only posted a fraction in the Pro-53 UL). I always thought about integrating all these presets into my Kore database, but at first I wanted to wait for an update to see if these would be recognised by a new version or if I'd had to do some import work first.

It's so sad that such an upgrade isn't coming. I don't care if the Pro-53 isn't the best prophet emulation - to me it's a synth in its own right. It can do some things that my other synths (NI Komplete, Z3ta+, Albino) can't and I don't want to do without it. I have built and bought a comprehensive preset library over the years and I have used the Pro-53 in all of my tracks because of its easy handling, its sound and its light CPU-load.

I really hate the thought that it's a dead horse from now on. It's unclear if all the efforts to integrate my preset libraries into Kore are worth it for it might happen that the synth won't work in future setups. It's funny how much superior HW synths seem to be now - and beside the ease of use in your DAW (automation, total recall, preset management) wasn't this one of the arguments for SW synths - the theoretical immortality (no broken parts, no stress with repairs and spare parts) through constant updates?

I am really pissed by NI's move to discontinue it. I can understand that Intakt and Kompakt were instruments specially tailored for Zero-G and EW and others to sell sample libraries - no big deal to discontinue them since Kontakt can handle these. I can understand that Spektral Delay and Vokator have been discontinued because of a licence for special algorithms that has run out (but I'm sorry for those for whom Vokator and Spektral Delay were part of their essential setup). I can also understand that NI is streamlining their product line to focus on their strong products and that they've also discontinued Bandstand and the B4 (there are many alternatives for both and for me it's not unlikely that there will be Kore packs that will replace these).

But I really can't understand why NI has let the Pro-53 die! It's one of their first products, it has many satisfied long-time users and it could have also been such a strong product if they'd taken enough care. It's true that it has been quiet about this synth in the forums, but I think just because it wasn't something spectacular new to rave about and because it wasn't so complicated to use that there were loads of requests on how to achieve this or that with it - unfortunately a robust workhorse is nothing newsworthy.

I have also heard that the Pro-53 didn't sell well in the recent years. No wonder, given its last real upgrade was about seven years ago and with a price of 199€ it has been too expensive in the recent years in regard to its newer competitors. And there are of course not many single Pro-53 sales because of Komplete and the Komplete Synths bundle - owners of these products are Pro-53 users as well and I guess, there are a lot of them who use the Pro-53 regularly. There have been always requests for a new versions and in return there hasn't been any survey by NI which might have indicated that it would be no use upgrading the Pro-53.

So, the way I see it, it's NI's own responsibility that this synth in its current form is going down the drain. I really hope they have some plans for it in the drawers to rescue most parts of it. Whether it would be integrating it into Reaktor or Massive with a full working preset import - I'd be more than happy and for it would be the main reason to upgrade both. Anyway, I really would love to hear a statement from NI about it.

 

I tried that .ens 1 to 1 vs the Pro 53 just before I posted, along with anything else in the library claiming to recreate the Pro 52 or 53. . . thus my comment about how actually emulating the sound of the Pro 53 (not just the structure) in Reaktor was more involved than some would suspect.

I agree that the $199 price tag on Pro-53 is out of step with current soft-synth competition, but charging less (say $99 or $49) doesn't necessarily mean that they would sell twice as many or 4xs as many respectively. If the cost of continued maintenance eats into the profit margin and/or total product revenue by too great a degree, it's somewhat understandable that a company would want to phase it out. . . . but I don't think any of us are questioning why Pro-53 was discontinued. For the simple fact that the product is now an ill-fitting anachronism relative to the rest of the lineup, I think most of us "get it" - - it's just sad to see a synth that was so useful and so loved (still, apparently) slip quietly into the night with zero fanfare.

Did Pro 53 sound good? Yup, "authentic" or not, it had some pleasing sounds that fit well into most mixes. Uncomplicated and easy to use? you betcha. Versatile enough to make itself useful in a broad array of contexts but still has a low cpu footprint? yup. . . . There are a select few other VSTi's on the market that fit this description, but it's a shame to have one less out there.

Pro-53 is an important artifact in soft-synth history, and a tool that is still very much in-use by productive musicians. . . I think a lot of us would just like to see that fact acknowledged somehow. To be clear, I'm not "asking" NI to do something about it when I say this, I'm just voicing my thoughts.

Failing the Reaktor resurrection, I'm at a loss for any logical solution to keeping Pro-53 alive into the future. I don't know if taking over update/maintenance for Pro-53 is an appealing enough prospect for the world of open-source programmers. Nor do I think adding Pro-53 emulation to any of NI's current synths (save for Reaktor), with their more involved/specialized interfaces, would really do the trick either.

Thoughts?

 

Users on Gearslutz are just as unhappy. One guy in particular because he had several NI instruments, and purchased the Komplete-5 for 399 to get B4, and Pro-53 and the piano. Less than a month later NI discontinues these products. It's not any use to explain you pay for what you get...and that many could see this happening.

But what I do not understand is the fact that you can use all these instruments years into the future, as long as you dedicate a PC running windows XP. Yes it might not integrate with your latest DAW and its newest operating system, but you still have what you have had all along less NI's support.

Pro-53 was a popular selling VSTI but not in recent years. I would guess the law of diminishing returns plays a big part in NI's decision.

To upgrade this emulation and make it closer than the Arturia I would guess would take a lot of money. Also keep in mind DSI's P-08 hardware. So how many current users would pay for the upgrade just to make it sound a little bit closer to the real thing? My guess is not enough...

For those who don't care if it is a good emulation, then what do you do with it, and do you still market it as an emulation of the Pro-53?

And how much interest would be generated by new users of the Pro-53 just because NI made it sound slightly closer to the real thing? My guess is not enough...

I hate sounding negative, however Pro-53 is still very valuable to me and with a dedicated PC it will be in the future. I don't let new operating systems dictate what I want to achieve in the studio.

 

This is the right thing to do!

 

... I didn't mean that they should sell it for less. I meant that at a time when it was still attractive it was already to expensive given its competitors in the analog emulation field (not necessarily in the Prophet emulation field). And in fact to a certain degree I'm asking why it is discontinued just now for it actually has been a long time ago (look at the last real upgrade date seven years ago), but NI kept selling it as a part of bundled products.

I can understand that there are technical and marketing reasons to discontinue it. NI has explained it and from a certain point of view it's good that they streamline their product line. However, to argue it has been dicontinued because it has become an unprofitable product is wrong - it has become such because of NI has neglected it for a long time and that's what I'm angry about...

...fine by me if the change the name but keep improving it. A Pro-53 is a fine soft synth emulating a vintage anlog synth - or, to a certain degree, emulating an analog feel for those who say that a Prophet sounds different. My point of view is that the Pro-53 is a good synth in its own right that is easy to use and offers a good sound. The whole discussion about the closest emulation is a bit pointless anyway (did a real Prophet feature a HP filter? of course it's different to the original). Anyway, it's true that you can get very close to an analog sound today, but original and emulation are still different things. One is hardware circuitry, the other one is programming code and it's natural that there are differences (not to forget that hardware models of the same synth can also sound different or, regarding the Prophet 5, through its different revisions with SSM chips and Curtis chips). Emulating a synth is a translation from one system into another - like a translation from one language into another or making a film out of a book. These are two different things and they will continue to be different. The remaining question is how close one thing will come to the other or if it has kept a certain essence - and a part of this question can only be answered subjectively. Concerning the Pro-53, however, I admit there would have been room left to bring it closer to the real thing. And I don't know why NI, as being the first company to emulate it, leaves the field to their competitors (or has left it long ago)...