Digital DJ products in a slump?

I kind of sidetracked the Feena controller thread with a rant about what I see as a serious lack of innovation in digital DJ products. I'm starting this thread to take over that argument and leave the Feena to it's deserved glory.

The original thread (and my rant) is here...

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/forum_de/showthread.php?t=35544&page=4

In that thread, Mark_H brought up a couple points I want to address here...

I like SSL, but it is no more innovative than FS2 or any other DVS out there. I actually find Mixvibes Pro more innovative on the DVS front, but they need some proper US distribution before I'll seriously consider them. SSL actually holds a DJ back in many ways (whether their target demographic agrees is another issue, as many of them don't use the features I would consider necessary). I find their lack of any kind of MIDI implementation sad considering they have had a robust "internal mode" since 1.4. As a DVS SSL rocks, but as a digital DJing product it's plain vanilla.

When I spin, I bring my gear (all 2 messenger bags worth). I could care less what club X has installed, because when it comes to something like SSL or FS I'm using mine instead. You're telling me that you would trust the beer soaked SL-1 in a club if you had your own? Also, what a venue has installed isn't an indicator of the quality of that gear. They get what their residents ask for generally. And if hooking up a DVS system in a club that already has a DVS system is a hassle for you, maybe you need an intern. It takes no time at all, and the cords are all already accessable (since a DVS is already in place). Likewise, if you have to ask ANYONE to make room for something like the Feena, you really need to get out of diva mode. It's not like you're making room for a Korg Trident. But what's cool is because Traktor has support for MIDI, you can choose your control surface. If you need something small cause you play some tight venues, you can always opt for the Faderfox line of controllers. If you just need MIDI for some basic controls (like effects), then you can grab a Behringer Nano (like I did). Or you can get something nice like a Feena, Kontrol DJ, or Bitstream 3X (which all still have a footprint similar to a 19' mixer).

And while I think the TTM57SL is a great product, it's really a bedroom/mobile toy. I don't see any clubs rocking a 2 channel mixer. So DJs that use it will be bringing it with them, running into the same things you cited as problems with Traktor DJs. You're MUCH MORE likely to see the Xone 3D installed in clubs, since it's a more robust mixer. The coolest thing about the 57 in my eyes isn't the fact that it's built into a mixer, but that it's using the P&T plugin, has DSP, and looks like the next "version" of SSL. An SL-2 based on the 57 would be a great evolutionary step for SSL.

Give it time. Ableton Live is being used to augment live sets by MANY of the EDM DJs touring right now. All Ableton needs to do is make a new product based on Live that is DJ oriented and you'll see MANY DJs embrace it. Turntablisim is a different beast meant for a different crowd. Just as you'll find most SSL users are hip hop/top40 DJs, I think it's pretty safe to say that most Traktor DJs are EDM DJs. Of course there are exceptions (the lovely NG as an example), but generally I think that's pretty close. So choosing one product over another should be about finding the product that meets your needs. It's not about finding crutches so mediocre DJs can hang with "real" DJs. Mediocre DJs will be weeded out over the course of thier short careers. The rest of this particular argument really belongs somewhere else, but I will say this.

The crowd listening to you rarely ever cares about "mojo".

So getting back on track, what do you guys think is needed to meet YOUR needs and desires regarding digital DJing? Anyone "scratching your itch"?

 

I think there is way too much politics and silo building in the industry. Most of the manufacturers don't want to come out with good products- they want to come out with products that support their product line, but not that support the users needs. There is way too much proprietary technology and not enough standards. There are too many marketing people in these companies and not enough current/past/future DJs.

I am tired of getting my hopes up every time some new DJ technology comes out but I can't use it to the fullest of its potential because the maker locks it down so it only works with their stuff (and the other gear it is locked in with is crap). I want to use the technology with whatever hardware and software I already have or might have in the future. If everything plays well together, then everyone sells more (only of the good products).

The problem is most of the companies are so small minded and fighting so hard for such a small piece of what could be a really big pie. If they really thought their individual products were so strong on an individual basis, then they wouldn't make their products only compatible with their other products. They don't realize that the next truly innovative software or hardware could triple or quadruple the size of the industry if the technology was open enough for people to use it in their own way.

That is my rant.

My hopes are that more people or companies outside the current DJ equipment industry will get involved - it has become stagnant.

What if someone came up with a hardware scratch control technology as realistic as the Numark CDX or Pioneer CDJs, but not in a CD, DVD or HD player version - just a controller? I'd love to pitch the DVS if I could really scratch on a controller.

What if these software DJ solutions were truly customizeable to how each DJ wants to play? Skins are nice, but I want to freely stretch/resize different functions as their own windows -decks, mixers, transports, effects, browsers, etc. and even want to be able to move those windows freely across an extended desktop.

What if a Digital DJ interface had it's own built in processing hardware (codecs, DSP, effects, etc.) so that the laptop becomes just a hub with display, keyboard, MIDI, etc. and has enough headroom left over to record or run other 3rd party sopftware? The DJ companies giving so much of their money away to the computer companies that it blows my mind. I spent $700 on my TFS/TDJS hardware/software... but 2-3 times that much on laptops, memory, hard drives, operating system, etc. If the software/hardware would have run on the old P3 laptop I had before, then it would have been no problem to spend $1000 or more on a digital DJ solution.

What if Apple and MySpace came out with an MyTunes Garage DJ software in which you could beatmatch multiple songs and/or videos simultaneously to make mixes and stream the mixes to your friends from your MySpace page? What if the MyTunes Pro DJ version of the software had external control plug-ins (for MIDI, DVS, OSC and other control methods not even invented yet)?

There are so many possibilities... I'm not even saying that all of these things would necessarily be good, but they would be a step in the right direction. Some real innovative thinking is out there, and not much of it seems to be getting into the world of DJ products.

 

I agree with the general sentiment here.

In my opinion what NI needs to do is implement Open Sound Control and allow anyone to create controllers for NI. NI can either develop one in-house or simply choose the best one and bundle it with TDJS. OSC will allow for much higher quality controllers to be developed for TDJS. If NI or someone else comes up with a great controller for TDJS it should help a great deal with expanding the market.

I disagree with the idea that we should just wait till most DJs start to become more like existing TDJ users and start to care less about the classical DJ functions. This might take years and years and possibly won't even happen in the forseeable future. TDJ needs a controller that fulfills the need of classical DJs right now and lure them into using TDJ that way. Otherwise, TDJ will remain of marginal relevance at best for the forseeable future.

 

Check out Numark.com.

HDmix is a nice little piece of equipment.

 

Sorry to abandon my own thread for so long, real life got in the way.

djkee-

I MOSTLY agree with you. At this point, I really don't care if a manufacturer makes something that's proprietary, as long as it's something new. I agree that non proprietary stuff is more flexible, but I'm so hungry for new gear that I'm willing to forgive a company if they want to carve out a niche for themselves - ESPECIALLY if their product is groundbreaking. Because we all know that if it's successful sooner or later someone will come along and build an "open" version of it.

AMEN on the interface customization. I wish we had more options there. And I find your comment about external DSP interesting considering that products like that already exist and have proven successfull in other professional audio applications. I personally would hate your MySpace idea because I think MySpace is a cesspool, but I also know that the more accessable a product is, the more likely it is to make money.

Xpringe-

Let's pray together...

"Dear Lord. Please possess the folks at NI to FIX OSC in TDJS3. Please help them identify the shoddy implementation of OSC in some of their other products that would work well with TDJS and DJs (Intakt for example). To motivate them, please help the developers of Ableton Live to complete their implementation of OSC as well. Amen."

I feel better now.

djwampus-

This goes to my original rant in the thread linked in my first post. I think Numark is the ONLY hardware company even trying to push the envelope with their digital DJing products, even if all they're doing is making "convergence devices". They're seeing what the market will allow and trying to make the next "must have" deck.

But it's still not enough.

WHERE IS MY TURNTABLE MIDI CONTROLLER?

Phil had a great idea on one of the shows about making "modular" controllers that would have (among other modules) jog dial platters. Imagine if you broke a KontrolDJ up into 3 sections. THAT'S A GOOD FU**ING IDEA! Why isn't Faderfox building this (I find it compliments their product line better than anyone else)? Why isn't STANTON making a line of MIDI CONTROLLERS? You guys know that digital DJing is going somewhere. You CREATED the niche! But you guys aren't even incorporating MIDI on any of your own mixers - even though that feature reinforces the FS/TDJS product line. I don't get it. The technology isn't the stumbling block. MIDI has been around for a VERY LONG TIME. It's so accessable in fact that a pair of our very own forum members decided to address the lack of a decent TDJS controller by making their own, and currently have working prototypes. I REALLY don't get it.

A while back I was on about a company that was making a new driver for audio products based on certain chipsets (BridgeCo being one of them - the Scratchamp's chipset). That company has completed their driver and is now selling it.

http://www.centrance.com/

The entire Presonus line is fully supported already. Has anyone at Stanton and NI tested that driver with the Scratchamp? Could it be the thing that solves the "not enough outputs" problem with the current Scratchamp WITHOUT incuring sync problems with TDJS when not running with timecode? Stanton could sell Scratchamps seperately for folks that wanted to do this. They could maybe develop a small "scratchamp" based around the Presonus Inspire that would just add a couple ins and outs and could work in tandem with the Scratchamp. Without the mic pres and other extra junk it could sell a little cheaper than the Inspire, and because of device aggregation a user could make their system as big or small as they needed.

There's tons of ideas out there. Where's the hardware/software package to turn a computer into an external effects processor? Where is the VST host that utilizes distributed computing ala http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/ ? Why is Beatport not acting as a label and/or distributor and still giving us that territory garbage? Why is everyone still so small minded?

 

For Macs, if you install the Apple Developer Tools (included with the OS disc that comes with the computer), you get exactly that: an application called AU Lab that is a real-time plug-in host. It even comes with some (very basic, but usable) AU plug-ins from Apple. Set the input and outputs, and you've just turned your Mac into an external effects processor.

There's actually quite a lot of cool functionality built into this application (although you need to do a little digging...it's a "developer tool" after all), and it seems to be both very stable and processor-efficient. It's also a very elegant and attractive program, especially considering the price.

I've been using this mastering (with third-party AU plug-ins) and it's been a great tool to have.

 

There are plenty of 3rd party niche programs that do cool things like this (the FX Teleport app I linked to is a perfect example). But I'm talking about the big company, main stream applications that will bring innovation into the marketplace. As much as I love that fact that companies like Feena are trying to fill the gaps in the DJ controller market, REAL support will only come when these products are embraced by the bigger players. And those companies are the ones who can more easily develop and prototype the kinds of products that will do well going forward.

I'll use Behringer as an example. They are generally a crap manufacturer that makes throwaway products. They decided to develop a line of MIDI controllers that, while originally based on the concepts of other products, evolved into a successfull and well thought of niche in their product line. And I really feel that they (Behringer) have moved MIDI products forward with their offerings. Companies like Numark and Stanton have been making DJ equipment for long enough to be able to design usefull and important products for us. What are they waiting for? Will it take a dark horse like Gemini to make the next big thing?

 

DJ Software isn't really a mature market yet because there is quite a long way to go to produce products which are reliable, usable and acceptable to most DJs.

Vinyl was almost totally reliable if you carried a couple of spare headshells and kept records clean and put your deck on a foam cushion. It was also very easy to use because you can access the whole disc with the needle.

CD was almost totally reliable and had an interface we could use OK - but not as easy to use as vinyl.

Now we have over-complex software which doesn't get the basics right and is constantly trying to add features which are questionable. Look at MS Word. It's a pain to use because of all the extra facilities that most people don't use but get in the way.

The software company that gets a good simple and reliable program working with a simple usable controller will win out.

I really like Traktor, but want a simple straightforward controller like a CD Controller with LED readouts that will work. Thought the DAC-3 would be the answer, but was wrong.

 

MyTunes DJ was mostly a joke, but the idea was that iTunes and MySpace have the heavy muscle right now in terms of being able to foster change in the music industry. Apple already is into the music production side with Logic and Garage Band. If MySpace wanted to get into the music production or at least remix space, AND they partnered with Apple - that would be a real sea change.

 

djsince74-

I agree in thinking that DJ software isn't quite "there" yet, but I'm talking about hardware as well. And I don't agree with the idea that it's going to take some big leap in software before we see a decent hardware controller. A decent hardware controller combined with something like the Numark HDMix would be an impressive beast, AND it wouldn't be computer based. You could also use it to tie into existing CD players in the same way the Tascam TT-M1 does. Again, Numark is dabbling in this area now, but they're not taking too many chances with it.

I generally find DJ software very mature now, and with offerings like Traktor and PCDJ being developed over several years I think it's only getting better. But digital Djs have been relegated to the mouse and keyboard until very recently. As soon as you started to see new developments in the DJ controller market, you saw the software market add features that took advantage of that hardware. I believe that it will be the HARDWARE that will drive the digital DJ market, not the software - because without a good interface and controller, it doesn't matter how good the software is.

djkee-

I find that Logic and GarageBand are some of the least used software packages in amateur studios. Logic, because it can be cost prohibitive in both it's price and system requirements, and GarageBand because it's very limiting compared to proper DAW software. I see Mac based amateur studios running PTLE and Cubase way more than any other software. And I can't imagine Apple having anything to do with MySpace. I envision them making an extension of the iLife suite with some kind of elegant social networking feature before they would accept the animated GIF infested, random friend whoring, tiled background nightmare that is MySpace. In fact, I think that if Steve Jobs ever actually SAW MySpace his head would literally explode. He has minions to check it for him.

 

MyTunes is a joke - a play on words. It's not gonna happen. I don't want it to happen.

I don't really give a damn about all the little kids who spend 5 hours a day adding a million pictures and animations and friendwhoring on MySpace. I was trying to talk about the MySpace music section -it is a way for fans to connect with their favorite artists in a totally new way and find new artists and connect with them as well. It works because it sells, publicizes and networks artists and their music directly to music fans. Nor do I care about amateur studios and whether or not they use Logic or GarageBand - my point was that millions of consumers use iTunes and iPods.

MySpace and iTunes/iPod were not new ideas when they were started, but they were executed and marketed to the right audience at the right time. Both iTunes/iPod and MySpace are a problem for the traditional music marketing and distribution companies because they are a totally new business model and they are working. There are people out there who hardly used a computer and/or the internet, but got interested because of the "buzz" on the streets about iTunes and/or MySpace.

The parallel I was trying to make is that the Digital DJ concept is not new, but the market is ripe for some company or some product to become the iTunes/iPod of the Digital DJ world. With the right tweaks to the idea, good engineering, good marketing and a bit of luck, that company or product will expand the size of the DJ market exponentially. Everyone at the consumer level will at least be able to try some basic DJ functionality for low or no cost of entry and if they like it, they will be able to buy upgrades to pro versions of software and hardware and buy third party plug-ins and controllers and the whole nine yards.

Part of the problem with the Digital DJ market having limited growth potential right now is that the traditional music marketing and distribution industries are afraid that anything new is a threat to their business. They don't want millions of new MP3 DJs popping up because if they make and distribute mixes, that will be another reason for people to stop buying albums. Even if the mixes are distributed legally and the royalties are paid out, the distributors lose out on the other 10-20 songs that were packaged in each of the albums (from each song on the mix). And because the distributors don't want digital DJs, the DJ equipment companies don't want to get into lawsuits with labels over Digital DJ products.

It is going to take some company or product becoming the next iTunes/iPod and MySpace of the Digital DJ world to legitimize the market. I have a feeling it is going to be very different than it is now. I don't know the details, but it will change drastically. And I'm also not exactly sure how much we as DJs currently will like having millions of new DJs or wannabees popping up when it happens.

I remember when the Invisible Scratch Picklz first started to get noticed and I thought it was kinda sad that now there was going to be all these turntablist scratch/juggle DJs whose parents bought them a DJ setup for their 12th birthday and never knew the sacrifice and hard work it used to take many DJs to save up for the upgrade from radio shack mixer to a "real" DJ mixer. I wasn't sure if there were gonna be scratch turntablists who never learned to beatmatch long mixes or never did a mobile DJ gig (wedding, Bar Mitzvah, prom, etc.).

But when I see someone like DJ A-trak who did get a DJ setup for his 12th birthday I guess I was wrong. A-Trak does some **** that I probably wouldn't be able to do even if I did practice 8 hours a day. Just because I paid my dues a certain way, doesn't mean that others are going to pay their dues the same way. To get good and to have success, any artist is going to have to pay dues in one way or another, but who am I to say that the dues they paid is any better or worse than what I went thru?

What I am trying to say is that if or when the digital DJ market explodes, I am willing to accept all potential newbies if it means a reliable, easy to use (and easy to learn) piece of software that works at minimum cost and effort for beginners... but also has available all of the hardware and software upgrades to suit the needs of any level of DJ including professionl club, studio, touring and producing DJs.

 

What I'm talking about is innovation within the market. Obviously you feel very strongly about MySpace (as do I, abeit in a different way). But I'm not talking about making DJing "the cool new craze sweeping the nation". Honestly I think that would be a sad thing, because I've seen many good things destroyed by the lowest common denominator. The LCD is why it's taken as long as it has for digital distribution of media to become a reality. But I won't get into that argument with you either, because it has nothing to do with my point in this thread.

My point is we ALL know what products and features we want and need in our DJ equipment. We all know what kind of interface we want to use, what controllers we're looking for, what features we want in our software. It's not a f*#king secret, so why is the "industry" so unresponsive to our desires? Why are the things that DO hit the market often so hamfisted and poorly done?

Your argument about hardware manufacturers being fearfull over lawsuits is a red herring too. First, there is well documented legal precedent establishing that the device manufacturers are protected from liability as long as that device has a plausable legitimate use. Sh*#head senators like Orin Hatch recently backed a bill to try and change that, but it was shot down by a wide margin. Second, digital recording and distribution is alive and well in other areas of audio production and recreation. And MANY of these devices are more fundamentally threatening to the music industry than the DJ devices on the market.

And I don't agree with your implication that companies will have to see the kind of profits a mass appeal product like the iPod can generate before they start developing decent digital DJ products. DJ products have ALWAYS been a niche market, yet many companies have made a fortune by ONLY addressing that market. Stanton, Numark, Gemini, and Vestax immediately come to mind. Many other well established companies have seen the DJ market as lucrative enough to enter (Pioneer, Matsushita/Technics, Denon, Ecler, A&H, Rane, etc). For a couple of those companies, their DJ product lines generate a significant part of their revenue.

I don't think the market has to "explode" before we see decent products. I think there are simply a lot of "bottom liners" at many of the current product manufacturers who are either too old or too entrenched in their ideas to be able to react to the current and future marketplace.

 

If only NI could had listened to my advice and got rid of final scratch, beatport, icecast and all the other junk and concentrated on making the application rock solid with an exceptional MIDI control environment then we might have had a finished industry standard DJ product...

DJ software is still developing and right now NI is not winning the game for me but it's the only option compared to all the other products in the market..

The disadvantage for Traktor comes in my opinion from trying to serve both the 100% digital MIDI DJ and the turntable final scratch DJ at the same time...

for me it was a mistake but I am not the one who is going to decide on the company's strategy...

however if someone came to me now and said here is a software with the likes of Traktor I would definetely explore it...

that is after so many years from version 1.x I can't say I am loyal to Traktor !!

but then again competition is rubbish at the moment...

unless of course Ableton comes with a stripped down version of LIVE for DJ purposes! one that is not a pain in converting all my mp3s to WAV!

 

I think Traktor as a whole is one of the more developed DJ software products available. You'd be hard pressed to find many PCDJ users out in the wild, but that product has been in development for YEARS.

This isn't a "bash NI" thread. And I'm not talking about NI as a company as much as I'm talking about companies like Stanton, Numark, Vestax, Rane, Ecler, A&H, etc. Everyone seems to be stuck in a rut about new products even though digital DJing has been around for a few years. Even in more mainstream digital products like CD decks, it seems that everyone is just waiting for someone else to come up with the next big thing.

Frankly, the software is the LEAST of my concerns. Lets say that Ableton DOES make a great DJ oriented software product. You're still going to interact with it using a controller that doesn't quite cut it. Here's an example. The Bitstream 3x and the Feena FMDJ9303 both have joysticks. But if the idea of using a MIDI controller is to get away from the computer, why is it NO ONE HAS MADE A DJ PRODUCT WITH A MOUSE CONTROLLER OF SOME KIND? The Trackpoint mice that used to come in IBM laptops are available very cheap, and they take up almost no room. All you need to do is visit DJ product forums to see people clamoring for this easy to implement feature. I've even seen it in the Rane TTM57SL forums. It doesn't have to be rocket science when it comes to new products. I think alot of us just want functional equipment that lets us spend less time futzing and more time actually DJing. And the bigger companies don't seem like they're even trying to accomodate that.