Discussion in 'B4 & B4 II' started by BobTheDog, Aug 23, 2009.

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  1. Umudo

    Umudo Forum Member

    Same here :)
    I'll use EVB3 till he releases new one :D
  2. SixStringGeek

    SixStringGeek New Member

    Which apparently doesn't include Snow Leopard - I was already upgraded to Snow Leopard before they announced they were discontinuing everything. Snow Leopard has a LOT of stability and performance improvements. If they made Snow Leopard the last supported OS, I'd cut them some slack. But pushing out a bunch of product (Komplete 5) and dropping support for it about a month later is NOT COOL. :angry:
  3. BobTheDog

    BobTheDog NI Product Owner

    Just lie and say you have 10.5 when you put a support call in.
  4. danika

    danika NI Product Owner

    I also fell for the Komplete 5 sale scam. I already had Kontakt and Absynth, so my main reason was to get B4, Elektrik Piano, and Pro-53. So now when I upgrade to Win 7 I'll only be able to use Elektrik Piano in Kontakt. Manufacturers have the right to discontinue products. However, if they are advertising a sale on products that are going to be discontinued, ethical manufacturers say it's a closeout sale so that people can make their decisions knowing all the facts. The Komplete 5 offer was downright dishonest.

    I do agree that hyping the 57 Drawbar Organ as a replacement is like rubbing salt in the wound. The least they could do is make this 57 Drawbar Orgain available for free.

    I almost bought Pro-53 from Arturia instead of Komplete 5. I definitely should have.

    NI is not going to get any more of my money. They've obviously changed from a quality synth manufacturer to churning out toys for tots like this Finger junk.
  5. BarnesVer6

    BarnesVer6 NI Product Owner

    THis is a real shame. B4II was a great product. It is about the only VSTi to make it into just about every track I have done and is my favorite VSTi.

    It does function in Vista 64, I think this is unsupported however, and it does work in Sonar 64 via the bitbridge both as a DXI and VST so heres hoping I will be able to use it for some time to come.

    When I saw the 59 organ for Kore player I thought what's the point, now it all becomes clear. I am depressed.
  6. Jusupov

    Jusupov Forum Member

    And what does Ni do after all this complaining? Nothing. They just bury our complaints under "discontinued products" and laugh on their way to bank.

    In relation to their old and recently seduced (Komplete 5 sale) customers, they have been dishonest and abusive in a way that will not be forgiven.
  7. Ivansc

    Ivansc New Member

    so whats new?

    Once again the customer gets dumped on.
    I am happy to say I WON my copies of B4 II and Bttery 3 in a contest right here on NI.

    Otherwise I would be really pissed at having spent the money less than a year ago and now finding that I wont be able to run either one under a 4 bit OS (win7) unless I use a 32 bit host and bitbridge equivalent.

    But there again it really is par for the course as far as software developers in ALL areas are concerned.

    Just finished leaving a Three Wheeled Car comment on the Sonar/Cakewalk site and here I am bitchin` agin`......
  8. tufftone

    tufftone NI Product Owner

    Wow, the B4 forum already found its way into Discontinued Products.

    As I'm new to B4II is Windows 7 (32 and 64 bit) an officially supported OS or is it kinda luck that those Komplete5 instruments work on it?
  9. BarnesVer6

    BarnesVer6 NI Product Owner

    Just luck I think. When I phoned NI support earlier this year to sort out a activation problem I was told B4 II was not supported on Vista 64. (They did solve the activation problem however)
  10. tufftone

    tufftone NI Product Owner

    Wow, this means they gave us Komplete5, which also means B4II, for an insane prize but it's not guaranteed the software works with recent OS. Not so great if I do the leap to Windows 7 64 bit and figure some of the stuff won't work.
  11. jimzepellin

    jimzepellin NI Product Owner

    This is the first time that I have bought a piece of software and then five minutes later it's discontinued. How that made me laugh. Then I discovered there was another three pices of software discontinued. Oh how I laughed. Then I discovered it wasn't me laughing at all, it was NI laughing all the way to the bank with my cash.

    Not only do they discontinue the software but they do it at a time when new operating systems are being released. Timing is everything as they say.

    I've got a lot of software from many different companies and there have been many time when I have frowned heavily on a specific companies pricing upgrade policies. Usually if a company is really going to rip you off the company director usually has the decency to empty the coffers and dissapear to sunnier climes, never to thought of again. NI just don't care, they just continue doing business waving the fact that they ripped you in your face.
  12. Thomas @ NI

    Thomas @ NI Administrator NI Team

    Discontinuing a product is never an entirely popular move. I have tried to explain the rationale and benefit in the sticky thread in this forum, but if I forgot to cover anything let me know.

    Regarding compatibility, the situation is not looking that bad. B4 II is compatible with Snow Leopard as confirmed by our QA team, no problems here.

    Regarding Windows 7, we are still in the process of compatibility testing here. I will let you know once there is more information here.
  13. Jusupov

    Jusupov Forum Member

    1) Thanks for showing up. I would hope your bosses were listening too.

    2) Not "entirely" a popular move? Nicely put. Is there someone in this thread who has liked it?

    3) Several of us have not questioned NI's "rationality", ie. the reasons or (rather) excuses you have mentioned being rational for you. It is rational for NI, a business, not to put money on keeping these discontinued products up to date. So you can "concentrate" on something else with the money that you were paid for these discontinued ones. Good for you. It is not rational from the point of view of the people who have trusted NI, expecting that the products that have been sold will work also after some years (and please don't tell me to just go on using Leopard... do you use Panther?).

    If NI was selling hardware, it would be in court for this; there are consumer laws based on reasonable expectations of the life spans of products.

    Thus, we have questioned the morality of NI's business choices. Especially keeping in mind, that you just sold B4 and other ones to exceptionally many users without telling them that you are going to discontinue them in five minutes (that seems like selling hot air, after your rationalities have become apparent).

    To sum it up, would you explain, what are the ethical values of NI, and how moral do you think these decisions are in the context of your recent campaigns, for instance?

    4) We know B4 works on SL now, yet for how long?

    5) What instruments will be discontinued after, let us say, OSX 10.6.2?

    6) Please tell our warmest regards to your bosses, for they obviously are not listening.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2009
  14. tufftone

    tufftone NI Product Owner

    Jusupov, well put.

    If there was a decision I had voted to keep B4 and Pro53 alive for any new OS, with upgrade fees as a given, btw.

    These are pretty good news. I don't know which version you're referring to, 32 or 64 bit, but I hope it will work on Windows7 64 too cos this is the next logical leap Windows-wise.
  15. Tical

    Tical NI Product Owner

    Thank you Thomas, but, alas, I utterly disagree. You're doing your job, I guess, but we have to do ours.

    Back in 2006 I was happily working with Cubase 3 on Mac, and A1 was my go-to subtractive synthesizer (and it was indeed quite good, even by today standards); then Apple switched to Intel and Waldorf (which was the real maker of the synth) didn't allow for updates: screwed!

    I said to myself I wouldn't have trusted again a company not giving ALL the possible warranties of reliability; also, I said to myself I wouldn't have used again the plug-ins included with a DAW, relying only on third-party products from serious brands.

    It was then that I purchased Komplete 4 (along with Kore and tons of other stuff from the most reliable manufacturers) and since then my go-to synth for subtractive bread-and-butter sounds has been - guess what - the Pro53, to which I reprogrammed each and every A1 instance in my projects. Screwed again!

    Jusupov made his point quite well, indeed: it's not a matter of rationale but of reliability.
    I own a company myself, and when a customer chooses me and my brand, it is not only for the technology I own or for our level of efficiency (that's the "rationale", and it counts, of course), but it's mostly because of our reliability, and that's where NI definitely loose: in about one year you discontinued 7 plugs, 4 of which having no substitutes; as I said a few posts above, NI is focusing itself on producing sample based consumer grade toys (and I'd bet that the next Reaktor "upgrade" will be more aimed to this kind of KoreToys than to serious programmers).

    Well, be happy, but do not count on me: this time I won't upgrade.
    Komplete is a dead duck in my book, and as time allows I'll switch to something more reliable and future-proof.

    Ah, and let alone the "Kompletely Insane" bundle thing: incredible!
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2009
  16. Thomas @ NI

    Thomas @ NI Administrator NI Team

    This thread and this particular forum is of course driven by people who value B4 II especially highly. But this does not represent the wider sentiment in the NI userbase. Outside of this thread - and outside of this forum - we have seen a lot of feedback that appreciates the underlying decision to increase the focus on the most relevant products, and put even more development power behind them.

    Here is probably one central misunderstanding. The sales of B4 and Pro-53 did not pay for their continued maintenance anymore, otherwise they wouldn't have been discontinued. Instead these products had to be supported from the revenue of other products.

    Should a Kontakt user wait longer for an important update because development resources that he financed with his purchase are instead used to maintain another product that he doesn't care about? I just want to point out that the aspect of "fairness" that you imply really has different angles.

    The discounted sales of B4 II and Pro-53 were actually marked as a blow-out sale by most dealers. But more importantly, these products continue to remain fully functional and work exactly as advertised. It's not that the discontinuation has affected their functionality in any way.

    It is very unlikely that Mac OS X compatibility will be broken within the life cycle of Snow Leopard. Changes that go that deep are usually only introduced in major OS updates.
  17. tufftone

    tufftone NI Product Owner

    True, I have no bad feelings using B4II and Pro53 on Windows XP for quite a while, and if it works with 7 64 bit we're save for at least 10 years or so.
  18. Jusupov

    Jusupov Forum Member

    Where? Let me see some, please. As far as I've heard, people who bought Komplete 5 would like to have all of their products working, as they have paid for those all.

    So if a product is hugely valued and everyone who seriously needs it has bought it already, you will discontinue it? Ah, the rationalities of NI, I guess.

    Should a Komplete user have his/her product (ie. Komplete) updated only partially?

    But not by you. You did not tell your (old or new) customers that you are going to discontinue it in five minutes. Don't try to pretend otherwise.

    So, how much effort and money would then be needed for continuing the support of B4 and others? Not a single Mac user here would be so angry (and I would shut my mouth) if NI would just promise to keep on maintaining the product usable in Snow Leopard, even if they would not sell it anymore.

    If "it is very unlikely" that the compatibility will be broken during the lifecycle of SL, it is very likely that it would cost you very little.

    But instead, you have chosen to make angry and to loose a lot of customers (including me, I won't buy anything from NI anymore). It seems to me that this is ridiculous tactics even if we think about NI's own business rationalities (mainly, profit).

    Of course, you can still do it. Just say that ok, you don't sell B4 and Pro-53 anymore, but you will keep them working during the Snow Leopard life span and there will be some maintenance updates for old customers, if needed (though it is "very unlike" that there will be any need). Then add that Akoustik Piano (and Elektrik) will be usable in Kontakt. Voilá, everyone's happy enough. That would be a good compromise, don't you think? Why not?
  19. SixStringGeek

    SixStringGeek New Member

    What most reputable software companies do with discontinued products that their customer's continue to rely upon is to place the source code to the product in the public domain - this allows customers to make their own fixes going into the future.

    If NI were to do something like that, it would be a huge PR win while costing them nothing. But of course you've got that other drawbar organ thingy you want us all to buy now instead and this would likely kill the sales of that.

    Offering existing B4 customers discounted upgrades to the other drawbar organ product would also be a show of good faith.

    Doing neither makes us feel like we've been had.
  20. Klinke

    Klinke Account Suspended

    "The discounted sales of B4 II and Pro-53 were actually marked as a blow-out sale by most dealers."

    That's right and a bit sad to read this (excuse) from NI staff now and here..and they didnt tell any on their own site.

    I hope 64bit support will be there when i need it..

    B4II and Pro53 dont have a high value for me, but the move leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And i bet everyone who bought the insane offer is a bit disappointed....and will think more than twice if they spend their money, like me.
    (i bought the insane offer, too)
    Its like a joke..a bad one.

    I thought of making a thread about this:

    "...The beginning of 2009 saw central product design figure Mate Galic succeed founder Stephan Schmitt as new CTO and President of Native Instruments. His promotion reflected the company‘s paradigm shift from feature-centric software applications to integrated solutions with a focus on creative workflow and innovative interface design. ..."

    What do you think about it?

    (i read here that some felt NI changed their business-way...well thats right)

    "integrated solutions with a focus on creative workflow and innovative interface design."
    In other words Kore.(Maschine)
    ..hey kontakt is much too complicated for humans...discontinue it.

    And how will Reaktor6 look like!
    (on the other hand, i hope Mr Schmitt has now all the time he needs for his "baby")
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