does 'no headroom' affect sound quality?

i'm running advanced HID mode with 2 cdj 2000's (each with a USB going into my laptop/traktor), and a djm 900 nexus.

in traktor's default settings... the output is set to -6 dB. however, i have to turn the gain up on the djm in order to match to volume of other dj's using USB devices or CDs.

if i turn the setting to 'no headroom' ...i believe the volume output is the same as dj's using USB devices or CDs, but my question is: does the 'no headroom' option affect the quality of the sound in a negative way? i see that the mixer output level in traktor is turning red... but the reading on the DJM is green.

i don't really hear a difference in quality, but maybe someone with some more technical knowledge than me has some advice?

thanks for your consideration.

 

Headroom is the same as turning your Master knob down by the same amount. You should try to avoid the clipping shown by red bars at the ends of the meters.

 

The headroom setting is really dependent on how you are mixing.
The headroom setting wasn't as important until I started working with 4 decks.

Basically look at the headroom setting as leaving enough for the elements being mixed with out distorting.

In your case turning it up on the mixer is the correct aspect, you don't want Traktor clipping.

 

i was hoping that wasn't the case. that just does not seem right to me that traktor's output has to 'red-line' in order to have the same gain/volume as a USB device or CD.

so what i'm understanding from your responses is that if i'm using traktor, i have no choice but to set the gain higher on my djm mixer than everyone else?

it's not that big of a pain in the butt, but it just doesn't seem right that traktor's output has to be weaker than other CDJ inputs.

i look forward to your discussion..

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see what the problem is. It seems you do not understand the function of the gain knob. There is only a problem when you have the gain at max and still can't achieve the desired PFL.

 

Just tested my CDJs on Traktor HID mode vs standalone mode.
Traktor Master set to 0.0, no headroom, and volume is identical to standalone.

Adding a little headroom inside Traktor doesn't hurt, since every track you play on the CDJs when in standalone has to have its gain adjusted anyway.

Here's a useful article on Traktor's gain setting:
http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2011/03/traktor-gain-sound-level-settings/

 

let me rephrase my question..

playing music off a USB on CDJ's
1) plug USB stick in, select USB, play tracks from your USB device
2) set the gain knob on the DJM to somewhere between 9 o clock and 10 o clock in order for the gain meter to reach 0 (max green) or +1 (first orange light) [on most tracks]

playing music from traktor on CDJ's
1) plug usb cord from the CDJ into your laptop
2) select LINK to connect your traktor library
NOW HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE FROM USING A USB:
3) you must set the gain on the DJM mixer at about 11 o clock to 12 o clock in order to reach 0 (max green) or +1 (first orange light)

why does the gain need to be higher for traktor in order to reach the same desired output level? seems like a traktor setting... but in order to increase the output in traktor... the meter in traktor red lines

does that makes sense?
---

that is correct -- however, with this setting... the gain meter IN TRAKTOR flashes red..... even though the gain meter ON THE DJM is in the green.

my question is.... does this setting effect sound quality?

 

One question, Do you hear it effects soundquality?

 

The gain meter on the DJM is affected by its gain knobs so it's not really relevant except for comparison of input volume. Noone knows exactly how Traktor's meters work since they're so minimal.

I would guess that playing at 0.0dB is the same as the CDJ's output (assuming they do give the same volume) since both are simply sending digital information to the CDJ DAC, but any Traktor FX or EQ on top run the risk of clipping the signal.

And on your clock positions - 10 o'clock gets me to 0dB green on the mixer with enough headroom on Traktor to stop the redlining. 12 o'clock seems a little excessive.

 

Look at it differently, they are not the same sound source so treat them differently.

It's the same as back when we had to use cassettes with vinyl or vinyl with cds, you simply did what was needed to get the matching sound.

Bottom line is you want the headroom inside of Traktor to prevent it from distorting. Why you find turning the mix up to be a problem is what I don't understand?

Are the other DJ teasing you because you have your gains set higher or something?
Maybe a fellow DJ offered their infinite wisdom on it by saying your gains should be same as theirs?

Otherwise it shouldn't make a difference where your gains are set on the mixer.

Did you at least look at the article makar1 suggested?

 

the answer to the first question is no it does not affect sound quality period. Can we move on ?

 

But his question was does no headroom affect sound and it does if it cause Traktor to clip.

 

Actually this could be tested quite easily by recording Traktor's output with everything at 0.0

 

Well you have to take the nature of DJing into consideration.
Songs may vary in volume, you may add Traktor effects, your ear fatigue from monitoring just to name a few.

If you are running Traktor at 0.0 then you are just opening a lot of clip potential or the need to run the Traktor limiter.

I can't see how someone would want to take the gain and fader control from the mixer if you are using a mixer.

Setting then basic aspect in Traktor and then using the gains and faders on the mixer seems the natural waynto control your signal path.

 

Well either Traktor applies additional gain to tracks with everything set to 0 and things clip, or it doesn't. Both Traktor and the internal music player on the CDJ should be sending the same information to the DAC.

Given that the CDJ in standalone produces the same kind of levels as Traktor at 0, I would guess that the track is just very close to clipping (loudness war and everything) but the only way to be sure is to test.

 

For practical purposes, I agree with your comment in spirit (it's advisable to leave some headroom so that you don't clip).

But what you state is not strictly true. It's not a setting of the headroom option to "no headroom" that affects the signal. It's quite the opposite. You should set it to "no headroom" if you don't want Traktor to touch the signal.

For Traktor to be bit-transparent, every setting needs to be at neutral. Particularly: "No headroom" is set. The master is 0dB. EQ model is classic. Autogain, effects, filters, EQs, crossfader, pitch fader, and key lock are turned off/in neutral position. Line fader is fully up. No mixing is being done (you play back just one track). The sound card is set to the same sampling rate and bit rate as the track you are playing.

Only if all of the above is given, Traktor does not affect sound quality. Of course, if you do all of the above, Traktor is utterly useless. So, again, I agree with your suggestion that headroom should be left (or the master should be turned down) for all practical purposes. However, formally, it is the case that a headroom setting of, say, -3dB alters the signal. If you later amplify the signal again by 3dB, you can rule out with great confidence that a human would be able to perceive a difference in sound quality. But the alteration would be measurable. (Almost) any change of amplitude degrades the signal (although, in practice, just a tiny little bit).

 

I would bet the CDJs have some internal control factor that governs/assures it's headroom as well.

 

All tracks have a max volume of 0dBFS and there is nothing that can cause an increase in volume on a CDJ, so it just outputs everything at a standard level (2V should roughly correspond to 0dBFS).

The DAC will have some amount of headroom itself, but it will affect Traktor and internal playback equally.

 

Not an increase in volume but an optimization of the level to assure proper reference.
CD players have always used some form of empasis or de-emphasis to achieve their sound and output reference.

 

You dont need headroom when using external mixing (traktor scratch), unless when using a really shitty mixer with no headroom of its own, or you cant stick to normal gain levels (many people have the very bad habit of pushing channel gain up on each track change).

You definitely need headroom when using traktors internal mixing in order to avoid distortion, I use -9db, and Im thinking of using even more now that im messing with sample decks.