Factory Projects - Copyright Guidance Needed

Okay, so I like to use pieces/parts from all sources, including some of the factory projects. As I said in another thread, there are some very nice patterns, scenes, arpeggios, and performances in some of the Maschine (1.8) factory projects. I've used factory projects as starting points. Often I delete/clear several entire groups, maybe just keeping a kit or two and a pad. Or maybe swapping one kit for another and using the original patterns. Or maybe using a factory project because it had an interesting tempo-change illusion.

I haven't distributed or published any of my stuff yet because it's mostly just experimental in nature. But I suppose I should ask...at what point does "leveraging" become "plagarizing"?

Do any of you use factory projects as starting points in your new works? If so, what nuggets do you like to keep, and where do you draw the line for your own works?

 

There is no changing point when leveraging besomes plagarizing.

Its plain simple. If it is not made by you, then the one who made it has a copyright on it. He has to be mentioned in credits and gets his share of the income, according to his work.

Think of it like: When you use a pattern of drums, then the drummer has to be paid. If its a keyboard-track the guest-keyboarder has to be paid. etc.

You can still release this track without asking, as long as you give him all due credit.

 

Um, no I know that's not 100% correct.

For example, I'm pretty sure that drum and percussion patterns are not copyrightable. Kick on 1, 3, and "3-and", for example. Snare or hand-claps on beats 2 and 4 for another example. Or a Cuban clave rhythm. You can't copyright any of that, or there would only be one song of each type!

Sounds, aka "samples," can be copyrightable. And yet even with that restriction, we are allowed to use the samples that come in Maschine (and Scarbee and Kontakt, and all manner of VSTs) to make our music.

If this weren't allowed, we'd all have to rent studio time to make our own samples. There wouldn't be SO MANY factory projects and there would be no need for add-on packs!

Spectrasonics plugins come with tons of samples and sample performances, and their EULA says you can use any of it in your own works. They just don't have complete song projects in their instruments.

So I'm sure that there is "some" license granted with the pieces/parts of Maschine projects. But I would acknowledge that there IS some borderline somewhere. I just don't know where it lies.

 

You can not own a certain type of rhythm, thats true enough. But you have to pay the guy playing it.

When it comes to sample or whatever libraries. You buy a license to use it. You can only buy something that someone else owned in the first place (because he had rights on it). So you have payed your drummer (to stick to that example). You still can not claim you have made that pattern, because you didnt.

 

Without diverting the OPs original question into the general realm of copyright law, I believe it's would be in everyone's best interest (for those that care/are worried about it) to read the EULA for Maschine as I'm rather certain that there will be a section pertaining to factory projects, patterns and, samples. That is where you'll find the first and last word on the subject.

 

It pays to read. Here is the relevant section of the EULA (italics and highlighting mine):

8. In case a sound library is part of the purchased Product the following shall apply in addition to the EULA (Sound License Agreement):

The provided samples, instruments and presets can be used for commercial or non-commercial music and audio productions without the prior permission from Native Instruments under the terms of this Sound License Agreement. The usage of this Product (in particular samples, instruments and presets) for the creation of a sound library or as a sound library for any kind of synthesizer, virtual instrument, sample library, sample-based product or other musical instrument is strictly prohibited. Individual samples, sound sets or audio loops may not be distributed (commercially or otherwise) standalone. Furthermore these samples, sound sets or audio may not be repackaged in whole or in part as audio samples, sound libraries or sound effects.
​

I searched the entire page for additional references. In the other sections in the EULA, dealing with various 3rd party vendor products (VSL, Sonic Implants, etc) have slight variations in detail, but all mean essentially the same thing. The user IS ALLOWED to use any portion of the product in their performances and recordings. The user IS NOT ALLOWED to use any portion of the product to make or manufacture a competing sound library or product.

Nowhere does it say that you can't use "presets" in your works. "Presets" are not defined in this document, so I take presets to mean everything: Scenes, Instruments, Effects, and yes, performances.

So what does this mean?

I believe it means that if I like the synth parts on "Bunny Over the Ocean", I can use them. I can use just the sound presets, or I can use one or more of the scenes in a song that I'm doing. I can change the key or not. I can change the meter of the drum parts or not. I could add a part from Bikram if I like, and then play my own oboe part from East-West orchestra.

The key here is that I am not making a product to compete with Maschine, Komplete, or any vendor such as East-West.

What about copyrighting my own music that uses presets?

Here's what I think: Lots of people have copyrighted their works with presets. Presets on their amplifier, pedals, Korg keyboards, looper boxes, Komplete instruments, etc. But being able to show that your work is yours is the key (so that you can protect your work), and if you use a lot of scenes from Maschine, then I think this area may get sticky. If I am interested in recording my copyright with the Library of Congress, then I would need to make sure that my "Words and Melody" are unique. After all, at the root, it is "words and melody" that you register with the LOC, yes?

 

i never use the projects or even the patterns as i don't want to corrupt my creativity and as well i am, as well as often opinionated, too arrogant and stubborn and consider it cheating - that is like using loops.

but.. from a legal standpoint, it is royal free and your license gives you permission to use it in any way in music production, commercially or home, with the exception selling it as a sample package product.

 

see what i found on sound cloud! this guy makes use of machine for sure!!!

 

Okay, I can identify with your feeling that it might be "cheating".

But how often do you hear music with snare drum, high hat, or hand claps on 2 and 4?

I'm willing to be that EVERY SONG you already heard or will hear today had one of those instruments on beats 2 and 4.

Will you avoid the use of percussive elements on 2 and 4 for every song you make going forward? No, of course not; that would just be silly and unproductive, because that is one of the root parts of Western music, so tightly interwoven that you even hear it in Eastern and Middle Eastern music now too.

How often do you hear common chord progressions used in melodies or harmonies? 12-bar-blues progression is one of the most common, and it's recognizable in blues, rock, and even jazz music. Will you swear from this point forward that you'll never use the basic 12-bar blues progression in any of your songs? No, of course not!

Will you avoid using arpeggios of any type because they are based off of the scales that gradeschool kids learn in afterschool band or guitar classes? Will you avoid using the key of C because that's the same key as the "Happy Birthday" song? Or 4/4 time signature because dance music has already been around that block, and Frank Sinatra before with all those foxtrots for old people? For that matter, maybe we should abolish 7/4 time signature because Pink Floyd already did that with their song "Money"?

Of course not, that's just my silly hyperbole, yes?

Yes, it is. So if it would be silly to avoid using these and other elements, then doesn't it also follow that it might be silly for us to tell ourselves that we can't/shouldn't use some of those elements that have already been performed and recorded "well enough" for our music?

So if I need a closed HH on 2 and 4 for a balad I want to write, sure I could perform it on Maschine. But if there's an already perfectly good one in the library, why not just use that and get on with the hard part, the part that takes the most time, like the reverse-toilet-flush sample I want to use for the kick or the melody so that it sounds good with or without lyrics, and phrases well with the rest of the song? That is, the unique elements that will give that song the "stuff" that goes beyond mere beats and chord progressions?

I guess all I'm saying is that we should not waste our time re-inventing "everything" in our songs. Unless you're really quick with the controller and it really is faster for you to just knock out that snare on 2 and 4 yourself.

 

The use of the stock sounds, samples, patches and patterns from stock kits is clearly available to you for use in your own work.

Unless specifically stated otherwise by NI in terms of license, its pretty clear that sampling the output of, or copying patterns or melodies from parts groups or scenes of the demo projects is violating the copyright of the authors.

 

I agree that the sounds, samples, patches, and patterns ARE INDEED available for use in our own works, but you say "clearly" when I would say "it's clear by the absence of verbiage to the contrary". We got to the same place but not by the same bus.

By the way, NOWHERE in the EULA does it refer to "stock sounds" or "stock kits". By using these terms, you are referring to things not in the EULA, so our understanding could deviate at some point.

I totally don't get this statement. The fact is, the demo projects are FULL OF PRESETS, and nowhere in the EULA does it say you can't use any of these.

What's a preset? Bear with me, because Maschine is FULL OF PRESETS:

An instrument consists of one or more samples assigned to keys/notes. This is a preset! So as I read the EULA, it's fair game to use! Yes, as long as you don't make a library of samples from it for use in a competing product.

A Scene is a preset of the performance, including any quantization that you've used or any automation that you've recorded, right? So all sample scenes are fair game!

A group can consist of one or more instruments and one or more scenes and one or more effect slots. If instruments are presets, scenes are presets, and effects are presets, then we must agree that a group is a "preset of presets, presets, and presets", yes? So every single sample group is fair game to use too! Right, as long as you don't make a library of it for competitive use.

So let's go to the most macro object of all: The Maschine project. If all those other things that make up the sample projects are presets, then how could anybody argue that the Maschine sample project files distributed with the software are not themselves presets?

Of course they're presets. Fair game, in whole or in part, as long as you do something to make your piece materially different.

If you read the EULA, you'll see that it is written to be "inclusionary in nature by being exclusionary in language", which means that if it's not explicitly excluded (disallowed), then it is included (allowed). And very little is actually excluded! NI's (and 3rd party contributors') main concern is that we don't use the pieces-parts of Maschine to make a competitor to Maschine. I think this is a natural and well-warranted concern for NI and contributors.

Noplace in the EULA does it say you cannot use any portion of the sample projects in your own works, all the way from the sound samples to the entire project files themselves. I think this is very fair toward me as the consumer of NI products.

Going back to what I said in my prior post, everything in the sample projects is fair game, EXCEPT when it comes to proving that the work is your own, which you would have to do if you want to assert your copyright RIGHTS. And as far as the US Library of Congress is concerned, that probably still comes down to melody and lyrics. You have to have enough of the song DIFFERENT to be able to make your case that the song is YOUR WORK and nobody else's. In the past, that always boiled down to the melody and lyrics if the song contains both, melody if it's an instrumental, and lyrics if it is a spoken-word piece.

Now please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying I plan to make my songs using only presets from the sample projects. But what I am saying is that based upon the EULA, there is nothing to restrict you from doing so. There is nothing saying you can't mix-and-match scenes, groups, patterns, samples from numerous different projects, to combine with your own melody and/or lyrics.

Of course, every country's copyright laws are different, and each of us needs to have a better understanding of what we can and cannot do in our own country. This is fascinating and I plan to do a lot more study in the area of music, video, and animation content copyright law.

 

This is definitely NOT true.

 

What I state is simple copyright law. Copyright of music is held by the author. This is a fact. So, unless there is explicit license to the contrary, the law will (or can) apply.

So dont simply reply that a fact is not true. :s

So, Feel free to backup your position with facts. For example..

a) Do you have a copy of the copyright license that NI has from the authors?...
b) An explicit statement from NI that they have such a license?.
c) An additional statement from NI, or the authors that they transfer or give such license to users of Maschine?..
d) That such license gives the users of Maschine the right to copy, extract, sample and use the demo projects in pieces parts or whole for alternative or derivative works for private, public and commercial use.

 

Hi BIF

good post ,,I think you make affair and logical point, but...

I feel safe to state that there is a difference between the sounds kits and patterns and the demo projects. Any piece of music can be argued to be the sum of non copyrighted patterns ie drum of : one space TWO/PSHHT, three, space, FOUR/CRASH), bass of : da DUM da DUM . but it is the way that these instruments, patterns and notes are put together that result in music.

So yes, the drum kits are sounds provided by NI, the preset patches are sounds provided by NI. Drumkit patterns linked to the kit are patterns/grooves provided by NI. Those are clearly of use to us all. as they are building blocks of sound from NI to use to make music, but they are not music in their own right. It is up to use to make music from those bits and pieces.

The demo projects however are musical works created by their authors and therefore are copyright work, and so my points are:

a) Since Copyright infringement of another's work is unlawful. NI does not need to state that in their license.
and
b) Doing something that is unlawful on the assumption that it is lawful, or because nobody told you not to, is not a legal defense

regards!

 

You guys are going to put every pocket drummer out of business.

 

Why is it that you think the projects are copyrighted the same way other music is? Which part of the project is copyrighted by the "authors"? Every individual pattern?

These aren't SONGS. The projects are simply building blocks for full compositions.

If you buy a sound pack of royalty-free loops that are cleared for commercial use, you are allowed to use those loops in any way you see fit. The projects in Maschine are really just loops that offer greater ability to customize (change sounds, alter the patterns, apply effects, etc).

Why in the world would NI or its sound designers sue their customers for using projects (loops) the way they were intended to be used?

 

You guys seen that Marble Rims comes with instrument kits that let you use melodic phrases and patterns? I'm surprised this thread has gone on so long. it's obvious to most that everything in maschine belongs to the end user, and can be used in any way they see fit.

 

I don't know much about the legalities behind copyright/licensing patterns, but I do know you can't copyright an instrument preset sound, or anyone who's ever used a Fender guitar, Nord or Yamaha DX7 is going to have a very very very bad day.

 

That's what NI told me when I asked them what you just asked the forum, so, that's straight from the company.
Hope that helps.

No further discussion nessecary.