Feels like Maschine is going the "abandoware" route....

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by RobLo, Dec 25, 2019.

  1. ShelLuser

    ShelLuser NI Product Owner

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    I'll be honest: I didn't take that seriously.

    I still don't because... Is it me or am I the only one to notice that the Maschine software provides 0 MIDI effects? I see audio, samples, you know what:

    upload_2019-12-27_3-14-44.png

    I don't see anything resembling MIDI in there.. and sure each to their own opinions (that is a good argument, seriously).. But how realistic is it to ask for a specific feature if the basis itself isn't even there?

    That's not saying it can't happen, but... shouldn't MIDI processing exist before you could even begin working on extensive MIDI routing?

    And on that subject... I have 30+ audio effects in Live, yet only 8 MIDI effects. Funny thing is that the Maschine on its own provides support for nearly all of them. Fixed velocity ("Velocity")? Done. Chords? ("Chord")? Done. Arpgeggiator? Ayups, it even rivals Reasons RPG8 (= personal favorite).

    To broaden my perspective... I have access to the full extent of Komplete 12. I could be overlooking some things here and there, but where are the MIDI VST's? I suppose I can cook something up with Reaktor but...

    Most off all: why would I even want to bother with this in the first place? I can take one stap above and simply feed in all the MIDI data I want to by using my host. Or whatever other means I have.

    IMVHO this boils down to best tool for the job, and having the wits to pick just that. When I need a very specific midi setup... I grab Max. Load in whatever I need as a VST and wham, done. Yah, that may be kind of extreme, but considering the lack of MIDI outputting plugins out there.. There's only so much you can do. and if you want to do it, why not do it right?

    Within Max I can even apply randomness to my MIDI data within certain scales and at certain thresholds. No way Maschine is ever going to deliver that.

    Internal VST routing? I'd try to come up with good arguments why we need internal MIDI effects in the first place. That would be a good small (and realistic) step to take towards further MIDI routing.

    But then again,maybe it's now me who is taking this too seriously....
     
  2. kb420

    kb420 NI Product Owner

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    I have version 2.9.1 on Windows 10, and it's not reading any VST3 instruments at all.
     
  3. AL’DREAD

    AL’DREAD NI Product Owner

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    Sorry I don’t think it has officially been added yet , my mistake
     
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  4. kb420

    kb420 NI Product Owner

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    I've been looking for answers ever since I read your original post. I think it's in beta right now, so beta users may actually already have it.
     
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  5. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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  6. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    It was announced, not added/released yet. - Correcting this for clarity.

    People managed to use a trick to force VST3 to work in the current version, but boy will they be upset if NI makes any changes in the implementation that will cause their saved projects with the trick not to load in the near future... I wouldn't gamble with that but to each his own.

    He means MIDI routing options for Plugins specifically and/or support MIDI FX plugins. This.

    ? That's sort of a 'chicken and egg' paradigm because they both depend on each other. If NI makes MIDI FX/Instruments or not is irrelevant, what people want is exactly the "basis" you're referring to because that would support the "feature"; they are the same one thing.

    Because it can add a ton of composing features that Maschine lacks or are currently underdeveloped with no signs of ever evolving... For example: Custom Chords Sets including presets, Custom Scales, MIDI Chord detection, Scale Detection, more ARP types, Chord drag-and-drop, instant access to Scale snap, inversions, the list is really endless...

    Not everyone enjoys using Maschine in a host, that's not a valid excuse for not adding simple functionality... If it was then anything people request could be answered with "just use a host".

    No. Plugins that output/control MIDI were never as popular as they are now, just because something is not on your radar it doesn't mean it's not popular. The likes of Scaler or Cthulhu are extremely successful.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
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  7. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    I'd hope that anybody (myself included) who runs beta software for any serious project is keeping at least a few months worth of system backups so that this wouldn't be a problem. I archive every installer on a NAS too for this reason after being burned in the past. :cool::rolleyes::oops:
     
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  8. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    Pretty sure most people dont, generally it takes losing stuff at least once to learn that lesson.
    Beta or not everyone should at least keep a copy of the current standalone version and the plugins before updating for safety, but we know how that goes... "New update broke XYZ, how can i downgrade, PLZ guyz WELP ME"... Then René cames and shares his zip installers to save the day.

    lol :D
     
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  9. jbuonacc

    jbuonacc NI Product Owner

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    well, he's got a point on the MIDI thing. one thing i like to do in Ableton is send MIDI data from ABL3's internal sequencer to trigger other synths. other arps and MIDI generators as well.

    ...but Maschine has never done this, so at any point in the past ten years he'd be saying that "Maschine is abandoned".
     
  10. lwj|localspace

    lwj|localspace NI Product Owner

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    Maschine is going the 'one native' route.. It's probably all going to lead to some kind of unfied platform for everything NI. I don't think they'll throw the Maschine users under the bus with that, it's probably one of their best selling products overall. But yeah, if you're the type of person that likes to mess with Max, hybrid and hardware setups... Maschine is not going to be that hub that drives your whole studio for you. The whole 'one native' thing, to me, sounds like they're moving even further away from that. I think they view Maschine/One Native more a content delivery platform, where the 'content' is gonna be some plug-ins, but mostly samples, sounds, presets and then the promotional stuff (eg. video tutorials, artist showcases, metapop, etc).

    There will probably always be different entrypoints.. going from something like Maschine Mikro to the full fat Komplete + hardware experience.. just like now, but more clearly laid out and well integrated. So think Reaktor and Kontakt becoming one system which is gonna have all your kontakt cinematic orchestra crap and synths in one.

    It's going to suck bigly. But then there's also a huge audience that to make an analogy with gaming are the casuals. Hobbyists, guys making hiphop beat for their buddies. And then there's always gonna be a lot of demand for those Kontakt "the music makes itself!" type library stuff. If you make music for tv/media, that's great. I think NI figures that's where the money is, not with people like me who maybe buy a synth from you once every few years, don't have a need for 'the latest' sounds. And I can't really blame them. From a business pov it makes total sense.. from my pov, it means I'm taking my synths and moving in. Definitely not abandonware.. just because you personally don't like the decisions they make, doesn't mean NI is ran by clueless idiots.
     
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  11. wetdentist

    wetdentist NI Product Owner

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    906
    i would not be surprised by this at all, one way or the other.
     
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  12. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    That's an odd way to define hobbyists... I am triggered, fight me, now!
     
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  13. lwj|localspace

    lwj|localspace NI Product Owner

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    387
    Haha, I was describing myself a long time ago. But sure let's fight! ;)
    And I wrote it like hobbyists and guys making hiphopbeats for their buddies. I don't mean either in a bad way. Better to be a happy hobbyist than a miserable professional scoring his 1000th corporate presentation for peanuts. In my book at least.

    Anyway, I can see how NI's plan (if it is what I think it is.. I have no knowledge) could be very succesful.. without me though, it doesn't fit me or my music. Integrated platforms, neat little content drops for an all inclusive experience. Barf.
     
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  14. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    I know I just joking around. :D
    I'm mostly assuming the same things you are with the one native thingy.

    As for the OP, I dont think of Maschine as abandonware, especially not because of the lack of feature XYZ, I just think the development has been slow and unfocused to the point that it can kind of feel stagnated but definitively not abandoned.
     
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  15. Stormchild

    Stormchild NI Product Owner

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    309
    Maschine is clearly not abandoned. There have been numerous recent updates with important bug fixes and even some new features like the ability to set group and pad colors and rearrange groups from the hardware, and Controller Editor support to create custom MIDI templates for the Mikro mk3.

    One Native is not a product. It’s a development platform for all NI product lines to benefit from the same core technologies instead of having multiple teams in silos reinventing the same wheels. Should result in better integration across product lines…especially between Komplete and Maschine, which currently have some gaping holes and inexplicable limitations that actively prevent people from buying more NI hardware, since it simply doesn’t work together as seamlessly as it should.
     
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  16. KaiN05

    KaiN05 NI Product Owner

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    I doubt Maschine as whole will be dropped completely. They're making money, so why would they stop producing or making products? I'd like to see a 3.0 though with new features such as better mixing, mastering and having more of an all around DAW feel.

    Even if they were to drop Maschine's software or hardware, I'm sure they will make the new stuff compatible with the old stuff. That's what they did with the old Maschine's and newer software so? Why not do it this time? To think Native Instruments is becoming abandoware is pretty ridiculous. Sure there are things that can be added but at the same time, this isn't the only production software that forgets to offer something. This is why many people/producers use/have different DAW's.
     
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  17. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    1,797
    My 2 cents..... Maschine is far from abandonware but possibly later than is optimal they are trying to catch up with somewhere within spitting distance of where most think they really should be...let's hope they make it and that 'One Native' is actually an improvement more than it is a marketing ploy to cover the fact that they actually haven't 'caught up' and have no intention of trying to but they'd still rather like your money thankyou very much and before you ask ... no I'm not in any way at all cynical o_O
     
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  18. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    Correct, that's sort of what the PR folks said, that it's basically more internal product team collaboration to supposedly make things work better together, I am not 100% convinced the focus of this is making Maschine and KK Integrate with each other better specifically, making new standards such as NKS, unifying platforms such as Kontakt and Reaktor, or revamping Native Access for subscriptions/rent-to-own along with sounds.com....

    They mention "products and services working together better" + "wider world of sounds and music making tools" at time where sounds.com, subscription, software-stagnation, external investment, massive layoffs and insufficient integration options were hot topics, not to mention the recent hardware releases have had lower "integration" standards than the previous (think Mikro Mk3 and A-Series/M32's only having proper MIDI more than a year after release)... so... it's sort of hard to believe this strategy that supposedly has been in place for a while is going towards what users really want in practical terms...
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
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  19. ShelLuser

    ShelLuser NI Product Owner

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    Finally something I can work with, thanks!

    Yah, and this is why it's usually best to add to an existing thread (in which all the nitty gritty was already addressed) instead of trying to start things all over again. Because in this case I can bounce the argument regarding "thinking about stuff outside your own radar" right back; if you can't back up your request with good arguments other than "you should already know this" then it's only logical to wonder if we're argumenting or parroting.

    And thanks for pointing me to the thread at hand.
     
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  20. ShelLuser

    ShelLuser NI Product Owner

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    618
    Alas, I read through the whole lot and can finally understand where it's coming from.

    Yah, I posted some sharp comments and I don't apologize for that. If you start a thread by downtalking on a product close to being plain out disrespectful then I think you reap what you sow. There are plenty of good ways to make harsh critical posts about something without becoming disrespectful. If that's too much effort then it automatically also becomes 'too' much effort for me to stop and think about the posters precious feelings.

    Having that out of the way....

    I can now definitely understand where the whole thing is coming from and honestly... I still have mixed feelings. I'm worried that this will take away some of the responsiveness of the Maschine software. Based on something I'm preparing a blog post about (my blog is almost fully back in action); latency is a big issue so I started comparing latency within Push + M4l and Maschine + Reaktor. Not a fully fair comparison, sure, but I think it was interesting nonetheless. Also because it shows that what Maschine may lack in its featureset it definitely makes up for in other areas. And I'm not sure if it's a good idea to just trample over all of that.

    One way or the other: MIDI effects are mathematical effects which mean the use of computing power. All good if this can be added on an 'on off' basis but that's the part I'm not too sure about (for whatever that's worth). Leading up to: theoretically this could result in having to settle with a decrease in responsiveness in order to cater to this request. I'm not sure I like that.

    Also because the usages for MIDI manipulation are limited.

    So instead I'd prefer if people would be more clear about the goals they want to achieve so that those can be taken into direct consideration and maybe added as "hardware" feature sets.

    What I mean with this.... Instead of requesting that you want MIDI plugins to work you might also want to share that the goal is to have a randomness feature to work. SO maybe that detail could be added to the current feature set. Instead of requesting "MIDI routing" without any details maybe share that you want more arpeggiator features, which might also be something doable to add.

    But that's just my opinion :D