Feena Electronics FMDJ9303 Midi Controller

I've NEVER understood why pitch resolution under .1% is a big deal. Is the finer resolution for people who ride the pitch control instead of feathering the record or using bump buttons? Because otherwise, I don't get it.

I set my pitch in cue until it locks up, then I never touch the pitch control again (unless there is a tempo change in the song, which is rare).

Can someoen enlighten me?

 

finer increments present closer possibility of pitch between different songs. Less drift. In regards to T3 I was seeing .05% resolution, and never really had a problem with drift there.

 

The industry standard is basically 0.02% (actually 0.015% achieved by 10bit resolution) as used by all professional cd decks on the market. 0.1% pitch accuracy really is substandard and my personal experience with most serious DJs out there that I got to try TDJ is that pitching is noticably worse then cd/turntables.

It doesn't help that as soon as you want to use a real pitchfader like most DJs are used to, you are stuk with an even worse pitch resolution of 0.16% (due to the midi protocol or underdeveloped support for OpenSoundControl by Traktor, depending on how you want to look at the issue).

 

So people want finer pitch resolution so they can handle the platter less and dial in a decimal accurate pitch. I'm assuming that this is facilitated by a digital readout of a song's BPM accurate to hundredths.

I'm going to do more research on this tonight when I get home.

 

OK, got it. I did a test and recorded a click track (2 min long at 120BPM). I then modified that track, shifting it's pitch by +.01, .02, .05, and .1 (used the pitch shifting plugin in SF). All of these cuts were copied off seperately, then I lined them all up in Vegas to see the drift, using the original 120BPM track as a reference.

For me it looks like a desirable resolution would be anything .05 and under. While .1 is certainly workable, that amount of seperation was noticable after just 10 seconds (it didn't really require adjustment for another 5 seconds). By comparison, the .01 example was only off by around 400 frames at the last beat of the 2 min section.

While I would agree that anything above .1 would be unacceptable (the aforementioned .16 was pretty ugly), I think a momentary adjustment every 10 seconds is acceptable (especially given that I have bump buttons on everything including my TTs).

 

Very interesting tests. My experience is when actually mixing tracks, you will sometimes get lucky and be able to exactly match two songs with 0.1% precision (or 0.16%), but generally you will experience severe drifting.
I would have to disagree about having to readjust every 10 seconds (or even more) being acceptable. Pitching is one of the, if not *the* core function of DJing. If you cannot properly beatmatch, this will have a negative effect on every single aspect of DJing. If I have to adjust the pitch every few seconds and constantly have to monitor for drifting, this will cause me to have less time to focus on other aspects of DJing and thereby reduce the quality of both my own and my audience experience.
Most DJs know this very well, and will opt out of switching to traktor + digital controller if it is a step back compared to turntables/cdj's when it comes to the most important functionality. Even if traktor is superior in other ways and offers lots of great features.

It's rather puzzling to me that a 3.0 version of a product that has been in development for years still has not been able to match the "old fashioned" turntables and CDJ when it comes to such a crucial aspect of DJing. The technology and hardware to offer professional level pitch control has been out there for years, its really just a matter of implementing it in software. I strongly believe that NI is missing out on a large market share that could potentially be gained if they hadn't been slacking in this department for so long.

 

I feel like I'm missing something. With beatgrids & sync, I've got most of my pitching covered to the point where I'd say I spend at least 60% less time dealing with beatmatching compared to vinyl.


Peece,
T. Tauri

 

I guess everyone is different. You have to remember that I come from almost 15 years of turntable based mixing - I'm used to riding a mix with one hand while doing stuff with the other. Having 10 seconds between adjustments that take less than a second to make is easy mode for me. And listening for differences in tempos in a mix is second nature. I mix everything manually, yet still have time to use the KP2, do EQ mixes, and lay down 3 deep mixes (using either the 3rd deck in T3 available to me, or an external CD deck). I can't imagine what else I would need to have time for that I currently can't get to because I'm adjusting the incoming track.

 

K. I just picked up the Faderfox DX2, which I can't believe how small the thing is...think size of an older calculator...anways getting back on track, the fine pitch % is .01.

 

It really depends a lot on the style of music you play and your own style of play and what media you use. With vinyl (or even CDs and MP3s that were recorded from vinyl), you always need to be pitching because turntable speed is never that constant.

If you are doing mostly beatmatching, you are pitching nearly constantly (in the background while also mixing, EQing, taking requests, etc), whereas if you are using acapellas, instrument loops and doing heavy EQing to remove basslines, vocals, drum beats, etc., then you will also have much more leeway before you have to correct.

I use FS vinyl conrol on a regular basis, but I am perfectly fine with TDJS 2.6 with just a mouse for everything except scratching. The only hot keys I have bothered to learn are play, pause and browser commands. Beathmatching is fine for me with the mouse, so I don't know see how it is any more or less distracting to mix that way (certainly not any more distracting than drunk people using the front of the DJ booth shield as a springboard to assist in their dry humping each other or trying to sing their request cuz they can't remember the artist or title).

I am considering a control surface or mixer w/ midi control, but don't think the resolution of fine pitch adjust is even a consideration.

 

This was my greater point. I was agruing that the pitch resolution wasn't as important a consideration, especially since when not using vinyl control the SYNC function and the master/slave functionality all become usable. I won't be considering pitch resolution on my upcoming MIDI controller purchase either, given that they all fall within what I consider to be an acceptable resolution.

 

The professional level pitch accuracy would be useful for classical DJs (the overwhelming majority of DJs out there at the moment) looking for a way to add more possibilities and creativity to their sets by switching to traktor. It's not meant for existing Traktor users that already are statisfied with how Traktor works.
If these "classical DJs" notice there simply is no way to beatmatch music the way they are used to do, they simply won't make the switch. If NI wants to increase their user base, they will have to make the majority of the core DJ functions of Traktor at least as good as if not better then CDJ/turntabes. Imagine being able to get a DJ experience that is superior to even the most advanced CDJs for just the price of Traktor and a single digital controller.

As for the pitching, I enjoy having to make adjustments only once every 15-20 seconds. With Traktor, I have to do this way more often. A DJing looking to make the switch to Traktor will quickly be turned away from this.

If only NI would release a digital controller and bundle it with Traktor that is capable of professional level pitching it would bring in a huge crowd of new DJs. The reason NI is holding of, is that this product would, in some ways, compete with FS2. I believe this is rather short-sighted, because it denies NI a significant portion of the DJ market by ignoring their needs. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future a different company would get it right (e.g. Serrato) and have NI scramble for an answer.

 

^^^ I'm not sure how you're using Traktor, but the way I use it, I have beatgrids on almost all my tracks and once those are done, beatmatching takes very little time during a DJ session. Which is the way I like it!

Before I bring in a new track (which is typically playing in a loop) I hit the SYNC button on it so I'm beatmatched. Then I get bar-matched by jumping a few beats. I make this easy by just jumping to a cue marker on the new track when I hear the downbeat of the old track (all my cue markers are on a downbeat). This can be done in a few seconds. Then I check in the headphones and maybe make a small "phase" or affset adjustment to get the beatmatch perfect. Generally no further beatmatch adjustments are required for a few minutes. Most of my beatgrids are accurate to about .01 BPM (which is aprox .01%) so the tracks might stay matched for up to 10 minutes. Usually I'm just doing plain-vanilla transitions of up to a minute so there are no drift problems. Sometimes I mix tracks for a few minutes and even there the drift is so small that it's no problem and no adjustment is needed.

Most of my tracks are from CD singles and Beatport-type downloads and so the BPM is very steady. But if I had more tracks that were ripped from vinyl then there would be minor BPM drift and more adjustments weould be needed.

_______________________
(BTW when I was a kid I learned Morse Code to get a radio operator licence. I got to be pretty good at Morse Code and used it a lot, so much that I could still hear the coded signal conversations in my mind years later as dot/dash beeps. Which is crazy because Morse Code is really an obsolete form of communication and just clutters your brain with low-level skills that machines are better at. I think conventional DJ beatmatching is like that. I hear stories of DJs who have the beatmatching skills interfering with their normal lives. For example if they are sitting in a car and the turn signal is clicking, they will try to beatmatch the turn signal click with other sounds in the environment. In other words this arcane skill which they have worked so hard to learn, has driven them a little bit crazy!)

 

Next year I will have been spinning for 20 years. It doesn't get more "classical" than me. To further that point, I beatmatch everything manually. Even though I use TDJS software, I still use FS2 vinyl control for every mix I do. I don't beatgrid anything (I spin mainly electro house and they're mostly useless anyway for genres that skip the occasional beat or otherwise break time). I just disagree with the fact that .1% resolution is unacceptable. It's not OPTIMAL, but certainly workable and not something I would get in a bunch about. I agree that anything above .1% resolution is pretty nasty. But the only way I would care about pitch resolution is if I was comparing 2 products that were otherwise identical. And TDJS has no current peer that I know of. I can certainly see Ableton making a DJ oriented product in the future based on Live, but right now it doesn't work for me.

As far as your idea about controllers go, I too wish NI or Stanton would make a decent DJ oriented controller. Something made ground up for digital DJs. But who knows what they're waiting on. Stanton too seems scared of MIDI in general, and have either delayed or flat out cancelled the controller they had planned almost 2 years ago. But I doubt that it has anything to do with Final Scratch. It seems pretty clear to me that NI doesn't consider FS any kind of priority, with no program updates, no new development, and hobbled support in their new TDJS3. Their priority is very definately all digital DJs.

Sorry to turn this into a rant of sorts (and I'm totally not bagging on you XP, just disagreeing). I just think that in general the DJ products scene has lost any originality or innovation it used to have. It's sad when the only big player taking any kind of chance in the digital DJ realm is Numark, and their big idea right now is "everything but the kitchen sink", heaping funky combinations of existing products / features into a new hybrid. THIS IS NOT CREATIVE THINKING GUYS! Where is the new Focus Fader? Where is the new Final Scratch? It sucks when the only folks taking any kind of chance are little companies like Feena, FaderFox, Kontrol DJ, and (to a lesser extent) WaveIdea. WTF is wrong with this marketplace when 2 guys from this forum can develop a better controller for TDJS3 than anything from Stanton, Numark, Ecler, A&H, Rane, or Denon? Until a bigger company fully supports digital DJing with a proper controller, it will remain niche. And that sucks, because as much as I love Vinyl Control I know that it's just an interim step to fully digital DJing.

Talk about hiding your light under a bushel.
</rant>

 

With classical DJs, I meant DJs that currently have a classical (just turntable/CDJ+mixer) style of DJing, without any augmentation by Traktor. You already made the switch to Traktor and you are using FS2 to augment it. The problem with FS is that its expensive and it still requires you to buy CDJs/turntables + mixer + an additional midi controller if you want to make full use of Traktors' capabilities. Not to mention that the fact that the complexity of the system (most notably the timecode -> computer transition) causes it to be inherently more unreliable and less precise then either a pure analogue or pure digital setup.
Now compare the expensive and complex FS2 setup to simply buying a single, all in one controller that offers an experience which is in most ways superior to what FS2 can offer. The market for such a product would be, by all means, huge. Some midi controllers come pretty close in both design and features, but are limited by the maximum precision of the pitch controller (0.16% in the best imagineable situation, which is unacceptable).

I totally agree with you on the second part. The digital DJ is being severely held back by a lack of decent controllers being available. The optimal solution would be for NI to fully support the opensoundcontrol (OSC) protocol. This allow all those extremely talented controller designers out there to come up with a plethora of innovative controllers to team up with the best DJ software on the market. It would greatly benefit NI, because their software would be supported by a whole bunch of innovative controllers that do not work with other software.
Even though standardization would be the best solution for Traktor as a whole, I do not expect NI to implement this functionality. If (and that's a big if) NI decides to move ahead and finally implement a protocol that allows professional level controllers to interface with Traktor, I fully expect them to take the propriety protocol route along with a NI produced (or outsourced) controller. This would stifle innovation, but it would allow NI to market the only digital controller that offers professional level capabilities.

Like you, I have been waiting for years for a proper digital controller. I had hoped TDJ 3 would finally bring what so many of us are looking for, but alas it did not. I really don't understand it, because it just doesn't make sense from a business point of view.

 

anyone had any luck with a more customized tracktor template for this thing? Mine is on haitus until I fix my computer. DOH.

 

mine shows up today....I'll be working on it....keep you posted

 

whats the verdict? do you like it?

im curious to see what other people who made the plunge thought.

 

Hey nemOnic. I think Serato Scratch Live has the upper hand in the industry today. Not because they have the most innovative DJ product out there, but because it's installed in so many clubs already and it's easy for anyone to get accustomed to. Its the "next step" for a lot of DJ's who come from vinyl and CD backgrounds.

Rane is just now releasing a DJ mixer that has controls on it so you can work the SSL software mouse-less plus there are some other enhancements on the mixer. It's not a HUGE leap, but it's yet another step towards digital DJ'ing without making someone feel overwhelmed by adjusting to a totally different technology. And if all the clubs have it pre-installed, that's even better!

With so many clubs using SSL it's nice you simply just show up with your laptop and plug in to the club's USB cable and you're done. No need to re-work the audio cables to the DJ mixer or PA system. No need to hassle the promoter to clear out space for a Xone 3D, Feena, Kontrol, etc..

I think if the technology is too forward-thinking then it doesn't appeal to most of the current DJ's. Plus I think a lot of DJ's like the challenge of DJ'ing, beatmatching, mixing, EQ'ing, which is why I think Ableton Live isn't as popular as SSL or possibly even Traktor. Live sucks out all the mojo from DJ'ing and there is hardly any challenge. At least Traktor can be as simple or as complex as you want and still retains many of the fundamental controls which Live is missing. One example is nudge. You can't nudge in Live but instead you quantize audio files using 1 bar quantize. So as long as you Play somewhere in the measure prior to your downbeat, everything is automatically in sync forever. Wheeee!

 

i dont think so.

urghs, not really, uhm? you're mixing up who's following whom in innovation. who had the key lock first? who the loops? etc. pp.

the same goes for fs. the choice (fs or ssl) is a choice of personal taste. i - for example - cannot imagine to spin with an interface that ugly like ssl ;-)

seen it and agree, this is a good idea!

this is the reason these use ssl
LOL, just kidding ;-)

agreed.