FM7 presets in FM8

I'm currently demoing FM8 and the verdic so far is that I like it, but I'd chose the retro looking FM7 GUI over it any day.

Anyways what I'm about to ask is, it seems like FM8 is able to import FM7 presets (although the demo won't do so). Are the imported presets 100% identical sound wise in FM8 as in FM7, especially the looped sounds?

 

Come on, surely this is a trivial question?

 

To the best of my knowledge yes.

I routinely imported the DX7 banks that I'm used to (from owning a DX7 and DX5 way back) when I installed FM8, and certainly didn't notice any difference just playing around. Though have to say I'm not actually using FM7 or 8 in any current projects, so wasn't paying close attention.

However, what I, and one or two others, have noticed is that the new Kore-style browser in FM8 is noticeably, and slightly annoyingly, slower to work with than FM7 when selecting sounds.

 

The FM8 converted FM7 sounds are identical as far as I can tell. FM8 has really been a GUI make over (Yep I don't like the colors either), usability enhancements and FX additions. What I'm saying is I think the core program is the same just everything round it has been improved (?) so your sounds should be the same once imported.

 

Thank you all.

 

The FM8 converted FM7 sounds are quite different and not at all to my liking. This is my first post here, so please excuse me if this has already been discussed, but there is a lack of phase coherence in the FM8 versions of the patches. This is most noticeable with melodic percussion such as marimba.

I am unable to use FM8 for traditional purposes as a result, but am hoping to find a way to correct the FM8 sounds to match the FM7 and DX7 originals, as I will not be able to use FM7 once I upgrade to an Intel mac later this year.

I discussed this issue with NI at Winter NAMM, and do have some notes from that discussion but they are currently buried (I moved recently). I'll try to hunt them down soon. I think I remember them suggesting that changing resolution might restore the sounds to their original glory.

I don't buy the argument that the higher resolution in FM8 makes the sounds themselves more accurate and that I am simply used to the original DX7 sounds. I am basing my criticism less on how much they sound like the DX7 than how unmusical they sound. I have an extremely good ear and have played acoustic music all my life (alongside electronic music). The FM8 converted patches do not sound "tight" as a result of this phasing problem, and ironically sound LESS like the instruments they are emulating than the original DX7 patches.

I was unable to distinguish any discernible difference between the FM7 patches and the original DX7 or its descendents. I also own a Yamaha FS1r, which has to be put in "dry" mode to exactly match the DX7 sound when such patches are loaded directly into it (the default factory patches in the FS1r are more varied and voluminous, but are rarely a direct match for the famous "Super DX Collection" for the 6-operator FM synths).

I really do hope this can be resolved, as I see the FM8 going forward as being a replacement for ALL of my FM synths, for what they did best (there is not a 1:1 feature mapping with more esoteric FM hybrid synths such as the SY77 and FS1r, but enough so that I sold my TG77 rack version of the SY77, and would love to be able to part with the FS1r as it doesn't offer Voice Mode and so is a PITA for live gigs and even for user editing of sounds since it only has 4-slot Performances).

Again, this is not meant to be a rag on NI. I expect I will be able to resolve this problem with the converted FM7 patches -- unless the switch to the Kore engine has drastically altered things. I highly doubt that though, as Massive is capable of accurate FM, and as other non-sampled products in the NI line have continued to improve dramatically.

And of course this frustration is solely directed at the FM7 factory voice conversion, as the FM8 has many new features that are quite exciting. I do like the colour scheme and the nostalgic styling of the FM7 interface, but FM8 is much easier to get around in.

Oops, I should have mentioned that I am referring mostly to the "Super DX Collection" sounds, many of which do come from the original factory presets but which have been heavily tweaked. This collection is available for many different FM products. The problems that I noted above are noticeable to me for the actual factory FM7 presets as well, but I don't tend to use those much. I brought up the case of the marimba because it has a known characteristic in the acoustic world. I have also had trouble with phasiness in the FM7-ported synth basses.

 

OK, I am now convinced this is NOT a fixable problem. I have ensured that all of the FM operator settings were set correctly, as well as other parameters, and have also experimented with different global settings, high resolution, changing analog drift from being off to being 50%, etc.

The FM8 conversions of DX7 sounds simply are not as good as they were in FM7. Most people wouldn't notice; especially people who are primarily composers and don't do a lot of playing. The differences are subtle to the untrained ear, and it is only my gut that forced me to listen more closely to try to determine why the FM8 sounds weren't as cohesive and didn't have the continuity between notes and the cohesive stereo phase and imaging that make the difference between an instrument and a piece of technology.

I know this sounds harsh, but it is the sort of critique you will also hear amongst B3 afficionados when they compare clonewheels that many people cannot tell much difference between. To most people, it will not matter, and in a mix, it probably won't either. But to a performing musician, these otherwise-subtle differences WILL be noticeable and can cause a disconnect between the player and the sound source.

I at first thought maybe FM8 had switched to a sample-playback mechanism, but this clearly is not the case. FM patches in sample-based instruments sound RADICALLY different, because they don't have the organic interaction with the player that FM has, and really cannot emulate the flexible envelope that makes good FM feel like a real instrument even when the timbre may not be as precise as samples. Many of us layer FM with samples to get the envelope attack from FM and the timbre of the sustain from quality sample libraries. I have not yet tried using FM8 this way to see if it negates my quibbles.

As it takes a long time to go through many patches, I will give two very different examples, so that those who DO have highly trained ears can compare the differences: "Marimba" from "Super DX Collection" Volume I, and "SYN-BASS 1" from "DX ROM Vol. 1". There is some overlap of both of these volumes with the factory presets from FM7, but it is too time-consuming to try to verify which ones are the same, as voice names are not always the best indicator. The volumes quoted above are widely available in many different FM formats are in widespread use amongst musicians worldwide.

I hope I have made this clear, that there is nothing wrong with the import or conversion mechanism in FM8, but that the core (no pun intended) sound engine seems to have subtly altered the sound in a way that would not be caught by most ears.

If NI does not already employ the use of one or more long-time DX7 players for their final quality tests, I think that they should. I would imagine that they take this tactic with the B4 program, as B3 players are so notoriously picky. Unfortunately, so are us DX7 players .

 

I decided it would only be fair to evaluate FM8 on its own terms, after my harsh criticism regarding the slight impurities in FM7/DX7 import rendering.

And I want to make clear that I really think FM8 is a major step in the right direction, taking FM technology where it has never gone before (or at least retreading what the SY-series and to a certain degree FS1r did, but with a friendlier interface, many new features besides, and unprecedented flexibility in combining all of these attributes).

The FM8 presets are truly amazing, and DO have a very organic character with a very cohesive feel. They also make use of all of the additional waveforms.

So I think it is a simple matter of the sine wave in FM8 having either some minor phase issue in stereo mode, or just not being as precise as in FM7. This can be measured quantitatively if someone wants to verify, which then puts it into objective space and out of my subjective conjecture.

I look forward to using FM8 for new sounds, and will continue to use FM7 for "old" sounds as long as I can, or until the sine wave in FM8 gives me the right feeling in the gut when I play.

 

@mhschmieder

Little hint for your FS1R DX conversions, you might get better results when adding the filter and using it to saturate the sound by increasing the filter input parameter.

Other than that their is a setting (I hardly need, but it's mentioned in the manuel) where the FS1R can change the patches within the Performances, so creating one dedicated DX performance should be as good as a voice mode...

Since the FM8 filters are stereo, FM7 sounds that are using the filter operator to create the center for carriers with a wide stereo spread, might not sound the same. As mostly propper working workaround it's possible to use the X-Operator, if not used otherwise, with a relatively neutral setting, to compensate...

 

I think I prefer FM7 over FM8

I had a song with the FM7 patch "Feelpad" so I tried to use the same pad in the FM8. First of all when I type that in the search field, nothing is found. But I did find it eventually by scrolling down. But the sound is very noticably worse with the FM8. I installed FM7 and FM8 of that same patch on adjacent tracks, and the FM8 is unaccetabley bad sounding.

I also prefer the FM7 colors, and speedy travelling through the patches using the arrow key. The FM8 seems to be clunky and slow to try out different patches.

 

In most cases the FM7 presets come closer to the original if you switch off the "high resolution mode". If it still sounds a bit to harsh, sharp or noisy try reducing brightness using the FM8 easy edit section...

 

Thanks for that tip Summa.
NI should fix this in an update:
If you load an old FM7 preset, then High Resolution should automatically get switched off.

If this does not work in every case, then (sadly) FM8 is simply a new instrument with very little backwards-compatibility. FM7 will never be a Universal Binary AU - therefore it will be a dead product. So much for customer support.....:angry:

 

I adapted a few FM7 sounds to use the FM8 features lately, some patches need a bit tweaking, but all in all it works very well.
Other than that some FM7 patches, especially Basses got improved, when importing them in highres mode...