FM7 Vs Pro 52

So what do you think is best, the FM7 or the Pro 52?!
I have both of these and i cant help wonder if all the sounds on the pro52 could be created on the FM7 and hence have saved me money!!!

Anyway i am keen to hear what software you use to create your music, ie cubase logic etc... Personally i use fruityloops 3.4 (sequencer) do any of you use this together with the FM7/Pro52?? If so i would be interested in hearing what you have produced with it!!!!
Cheers, -Spoonfed

 

Back when these were hardware synths "which one is best" never crossed my mind. They were very different in what they could do. They could be used seperately or together as a layered sound to create something neither could do alone. I hope they are still different enough for that to be true.

I look forward to an answer to your question also.

Don

 

An NI response?

The lack of response here is disappointing. I would have thought someone from NI would have volunteered some info about the differences in the two programs and the value of having each in a soft-synth rack. I'd love to hear from someone at NI who could enlighten us.
Don

 

Well, this is disappointing.

Looks like there is a lot of interest (250 views) but no new info. Surely someone at NI can take a few minutes and offer something useful as a comparison between FM7 and Pro-52.

If you agree and would like NI to respond, post here with me to encourage NI to give up some info.

I'd like to know how the two programs are different sound-wise and how they might be used together. If you own both programs, give us your view on using them.

Thanks,
Don

 

I hope this helps

I think the difference is obvious...

Please correct me if I'm wrong since I only tested the demo: Pro52 is completely subtractive and has less parameter and thus it's easier to make own sounds. It emulates the parameters and sound of an analog classic and can read its sysex files.

While the FM7 has much more parameters, is much more flexible when it comes to the sound and even so it has subtractive components its an FM - synth and thus not that easy to programm than a pure subtractive one. Even so they done a good job with the user interface some ppl. might have a hard time to get into soundprogramming with this synth.
It can read DX patches and sounds close to the original, but can do much more than the old Yamaha FM synth so in my opinion FM7 isn't that vintage and would rather fit into the future line...
I haven't done that comparison my self, but I've been told that in average the FM7 probably needs about twice the computing power for the same amount of voices ...

Well and don't forget the difference when it comes to the price...

So I find it realy hard to compare those two since it depends on your needs.

Well, I prefere the FM7...

 

They sound different to me

What's to complain about? You have the best of both the old analog world and the FM synthesis world. I read your post whether you wasted money on the Pro 52, and thought, maybe I could just get an FM7 only. So, I went through my sound fonts of analog basses, pads, and leads. What a pain. Some are out of tune, others are recorded badly. The Pro 52 emulates most analog synths, and it requires much less disk space than sound fonts. Or any other samples of analog synths. There are so many samples of analog synths it's ridiculous.
After slowly and painfully loading up sound font after sound font in various folders and configurations, I loaded up the demo version of the Pro 52. There are only 24 sounds with it, but they really do sound like analog synths.
Then, I loaded up the demo of the FM7. They sound like FM digital synths.
I don't think they sound the same at all. I'm going to buy them both when I get the money. We'll see what I do will all of those sound fonts after that.
The one I wonder about is Reaktor. It's a fun toy, but practical usage for me? I don't need it's sequencing/arpeggiator functions, the FM7 and Pro 52 cover those huge areas of sound generation, it's more difficult to maneuver than other NI synths, more crash-prone. Most of the ensembles recreate synths which are already covered by the FM7 and the Pro 52. Don't get me wrong, Reaktor is totally cool, but it's practical application for me is small. Especially with Absynth coming.
If you get the FM7 and Pro 52, you can just use your sampler/sound fonts for real-life sounds. It seems to me to be easier to use a dedicated analog synth and FM synth than tweaking samples in Kontakt, or some other sampler/sound font loading machine.
DX7s never fully replaced analog synths, and neither will the FM7. Samplers can't either. Why try when NI sells them for relatively cheap (compared to hardware synthesizers).
I was just looking into reviving usage of my old Yamaha tone generator. Data dumps, etc., to and from the computer. What a pain! Then I'd need a separate mixer to mix my softsynths via computer, with my hardware tone generators, outboard effects gear for it. Patch cables, etc, etc, etc.
All-in-one: that's my computer. Thank goodness it lets me use multiple soft synths. Rejoice! You've already got your analog and FM machines right there handy on your computer. I still need to buy mine. You didn't waste your money on the Pro 52. Play them both and ask yourself if you really do think they sound the same, and I'm sure you'll say, no they don't, and you'll be glad you've got them both.

 

I can't exactly agree with you since I know the FM7 very well and so I'm sure the synth isn't only capable of digital sounds and is able to do the whole range of subtractive sounds as well. Even some more than the Pro52 since the FM7 filters are more flexible, it's 2 x -12db Filters that can be switched almost stepless between LP, HP and Bandpass characteristics and when switching (almost stepless as well) between parallel and serial characteristic it's also possible to create various -24db filter types too.
Other than the DX7 the FM7 operators aren't limited to sine waveforms and every operator can do feedback so it's no problem to generate the typical synth waveforms with different amounts of harmonics. With some experience it's also possible to generate those waveforms differently shaped or even morphs between the waveforms.
I also can't agree with you when it comes to the handling of the FM7, since the easy page allows the standard user to have as much control over the sound as they're used to have with a subtractive synth. But if you start programming a sound from scratch you're of course much faster with a pure subtractive synth.
I know the Pro52 sounds different, well it sould be since NI tried to get as close to the Prophet 5 as possible, but when the charactersitics is not of importance the FM7 can do most of those sounds in good quality too. Ok, it's not that easy to create PWM and typical Oszillator - Sync sounds...
When it comes to Kontakt, look at the specs, it sure has more synthesis capabilities than lots of softsynths on the market. Well I leave the coments about your Absynth and Reaktor statements to other users but I wouldn't compare them ...
Of course if you have an ear for it real analoge synths (I don't talk about VAs here) can't be replaced by software yet. But it depends of what kind of music you're making and what kind of audience you have. Most of the ppl. won't spot the difference especially in a dense mix. I still have a lot outboard gear, even old and new Yamaha - FM synths and an mid 80s analoge one, I'm not sure what kind of problems you have when it comes to dump your sounds. If you have the right soundcard with lots of ins and outs you don't even need a mixer...
When it comes to me I like to do soundprogramming so I do prefere the FM7 because of its synthesis abilities and I know with a Pro52 I would get bored after some time, but a lot of ppl. like synths that are easy to program and would have more fun with the Pro5.

 

1) So it's not worth it to buy a Pro 52 if you plan to buy a FM7?
2) I'm looking for a diversity of sounds. I'll not mention which, but I've listened to other soft synths (by some other developers), and all of their sounds are not too different from others. That can be achieved by the FM7?
3) I don't mean to knock Reaktor. It is truly amazing. The demo comes with few useable sounds, many of the synths that are developed are copies of old analog synths. It takes more CPU than FM7. I guess it's just less of a plug-in-and-play kind of synth. Which is great for many people. It will just be number 4 or 5 in my list of "must buy" synths. Or would it be better to buy than FM7 because it has FM synthesis integrated as well?
4) Kontakt - the demo needs to be released. Until I can see its functionality first-hand, on paper it looks like an expensive VSampler. Perhaps it will be a good complement to FM7?
5) Absynth -- again, the demo needs to be released. Maybe it's a better complement to FM7 than Pro 52?
6) "Real" analog synths. When they are recorded, do they sound any different than software synthesizers? Now both are on 16 bit digital. I understand why people still like them. But, I do find external devices to be much more cumbersome the more I get accustomed to software synthesizers.

I look forward to more discussion of this. My opinions are malleable and subject to change -- that's why I posted in the first place. I'm not making pronouncements here, I am interested in differing opinions help me figure out what to buy.

 

Hi Howdy,

I might have been "promoted" to moderator now but I don't work for N.I. so I don't have all the answers myself (and even if I have some more answers I'm not always allowed to tell ))...

1. I wouldn't say that in general sind it depends on your abilities. If you're not an experienced soundprogrammer and want to programm your own sounds I think the Pro52 is probably the better first choice. If it don't have to sound Prophet 5 like and you're willing to get into the FM syntesis and you have a "fast" computer I'd take the FM7 since it covers the whole range of digital and analoge type sounds...
There are so many things to consider and I don't know you well enough to make an recommendation... I think there are ppl. who get happy when buying both others would find them redundant...

2. I'm judging a synth rather by it's architecture than it's presets. I know the FM7 can do a varriety of different sounds, but I can't help you as long as I don't know what kind of sounds you're searching for

3. You probably will be able to create a similar synth in Reaktor but FM7 has a well designed user interface, what is quite important for an FM - Synth, that way I find it far easier to use than one of the Reaktor FM - Synth and Reaktor can't import DX sysex files and of course FM7 needs less processing power...

4. Well, I don't know Vsampler that well, but I don't think it can pitch samples without a change in length or shift it's formants. It probably can't create PWM and wavetable synthesis by modulating the sample start and don't have a flexible modulation sceme were you're for instance able to add an LFO or Envelope for every destination or one LFO or Envelope for everything. I guess even an LFO that modulate LFO that modulate LFO ... and 8 Loops per sample probably isn't possible whith Vsampler? What about a stepmodulator, do you know if Vsampler is having one?
I think for ppl. who want to use their sampler for more than just sample playback it's worth the wait...

5) I wait for the demo myself, but I saw/heard it at the music fair in Frankfurt and it sounds quite impressive... but as I said I don't tend to judge a synth by it's presets...

6) Well, I only bought my matrix-6 since it wasn't as expensive as an VA and it can do warm pads You will definitly hear (and being able to record) the difference between VA and real analog when you work with ringmodulation or FM since the analog Synths rather create noise than "aliasing" and so far I found no VA that can do those functions without creating unwanted artifacts yet. I even hear a difference when I compare oscillator and filter of analog synths with the ones of the VAs. It seems to be like a constant modulation that make the analog sound deeper and richer, but that doesn't matter for the music I make and the typical listener won't spot the difference too... Anyway, that's more a question for Moogulator who is also attending that forum from time to time and is a great fan of analoge synths

 

1. I am interested in presets. Lots of presets. Programming is interesting to me too, but presets are very important. This is why I may still be interested in the Pro 52, even if I can get all of its functionality in FM7.

2. Are there a lot of good basses with FM7? If I can get heavy bass presets like I can with an analog synth, I would be very happy. This is the trouble I have with my sound fonts. The basses just do not cut it, and I am tired of searching through them all --slowly -- to find the right bass for each song.

3. I'll save Reaktor purchase for later.

4. Kontakt does not list Akai S5000/6000 import capability. That is a huge oversight in my opinion. I don't want to buy a conversion program. Why did they leave that capability out?

5. I will be interested to see whether Absynth bumps FM7 from my first-in-line to purchase after the demo finally becomes available.

6.

 

1) Well, when I talked about presets I ment the factory sounds since on complex gear they mostly don't show what that thing is able to do. In most cases the programmers of the factory sound don't have much time to get into a synth so an able user can do a lot more interesting sounds with a synth since he/she have the time to undestand his gear/software well enough. So even if someone isn't a soundprogrammer he/she might find better sounds in the net or can buy new ones...

2) I did some analog style FM7 basses for a friend that I'm going to upload as soon as I have enough sounds for a new bank...

4) Don't know, since most Sampling CDs I'm interested in (like orchestral and exotic instruments) are in Akai S1000 and some in S2000/S3000 Format. Anyway, I hardly use sampling CDs and there's already a format discussion on the Kontakt list you can join and discuss with other ppl. who wants N.I. to add additional formats...

5) Absynth is older than FM7 so the presets probably use the synths abilities better and I guess there are much more sounds avaiable for it too. Well, let me know about your decision...

 

1. I think I'll begin with FM7, and see if the factory presets, those available on the net, and purchaseable presets satisfy me. Then, I'll try my hand at making my own. Then, if I still don't have those analog-style basses (and other sounds I want), I'll buy the Pro 52.

2. I'll watch for them...

4. I moved that question over the the Kontakt site. I will be interested to see how Kontakt can manipulate sounds. If it is quite good, then it will be like a limitless wavetable on a wavetable synth. That will be very appealing if it is.

5. Absynth is the wildcard here for me, because I know so little about it other than I love the mp3s of Absynth in action. Maybe it will beat out FM7 as #1? That's tough, because everywhere I hear, and from my own experience believe, that the FM7 is THE best software synthesizer available by a long shot.

6. Real analog synths -- Like real drums, cymbals, and pianos I suppose. No substitute for the real thing.

 

1) What other sounds are you looking for?

2) I'm currently quite busy, so if you need the basses before I finished the bank I can mail them to you...

4) I think synthesis wise Kontakt beats most soft- and quite a lot hardware sampler. Creating your own wavetable isn't that easy since you have to create the interpolations between the steps yourself.

5) FM7 convinced me to use software among my hardware synths. Before that I wasn't sure if native software has evolved enough to cope with DSP - hardware. I tested a lots of softsynths so far but I still use only two of them...

 

ok, some basic stuff:

•absynth
is a quite organic sounding synth..
very recommendable!!.. why? its unique in its sound..
reasons: the ENVelopes can be scaled as you like and you got lots of steps and can display as many as you want (and create & mod anything you want to..) and there is a grid that lets you sync the envs to your beat and make rhythmic syncing sound with it.. at also is able to do "analogue" plus organic sounds.. because it has some special FX (multi comb etc..) and the basic engine is complex enough for not beeing boring
3 OSCs, filters, FM (2 variations), drawing spectra of those oscs!..

and yes, the sound palette ranges from "analogue" stuff to rhythmic "absynth only"-sounds that are mostly "organic".. thats what I really like in absynth.. since it was out (first at brian clevingers site, than as NI plug..)..

virtual analogue vs. real analogue:

well the secret (as an andromeda and xpander user..analog synths!) I must say: the biggest problem in emulating the analogue sounds perfectly is simple: still there is NO exact copy on the market, but something that looks like classic synths.. the special sound of the filters, oscs, the scaling etc.. if you compare them a to b is the "fatness", the broadness and it ranges from ultradeep to high frequencies.. while VAs and the like always sound a little "plastic"..

in some cases (like reaktor, absynth, fm7 etc..) its the digital "goodies" that make them interesting.. because you will never reach the real analgue sound using emulations.. but if you buy those as an extension to your sounds.. or if you do not have the money or for live.. it makes sense to use emulations..
the pro thing on software is the flexibility!! so if you need ynother oscillator, FM or whatever.. thats where you start loving software emulations and VA.. like reaktor or absynth..

in case of the fm synth: I find there might also be a difference.. but the fm7 was is much more extended in synthesis then a dx7/dx7II and even a tg77 (excluding samples).. and the sound is more hifi.. for me the fm7 is a killer!

but if it comes to mix and you final CDs its sometimes not that important to use the real analogue hardware.. but.. well if you are well trained.. or better say: if you have got ears.. you can hear the difference.. some sounds may not be necessarly that "realistic" so, you can use software.. in case of VA/software you might want to use the extra features,that a real analogue doesnt offer or simply its not possible (well, maybe it is,but very very big & expensive..)
use software / VA (no difference! well, the VA has a "analogue like" surface.. but its also a computer/DSP inside.. so its software too..)

the emulations have improved much in the last years..

but you should choose your gear carefully .. imo its the best thing to have the best of both worlds together.. and you use the analgue gear if the rest will not work or you need the special extra..
I am sure, you can do everything on a computer..
and you are able to make it sounding some more "$".. (means: you really hear it!)..

sorry, longish..

 

Thanks for all the great responses. My only disappointment now is that no one from NI posted a compelling reason to purchase Pro-52. I am a tweaker more than a programmer; so its presets are worth something to me if they sound different enough. I like to layer sounds that have different qualities to create a unique new sound and then move in and out between those layers to keep the music interesting throughout a piece. (an example might be a warm analog string patch that turns into a crisp digital string patch.)

Someone with extensive knowledge of both FM7 and Pro-52 might be able to tell me if this is a credible process with a combination of Pro-52 and FM7.

Don

 

When it comes to the FM7 presets the soundprogrammers were told to use the FM7 features and to avoid making Pro-5 type sounds. That way the factories are quite different between those two synths and even so I'm not a Pro-52 user I know its presets good enough to tell that you won't find much FM7 factory sounds in them...

 

Buying Presets

So, if you want a bunch of analog presets, and the ability to import a bunch more analog presets from the internet, the Pro 52 is worth the $140 you can buy it for from some stores.
But, if you want to make your own analog sounds, just buy the FM7, because it can make the analog sounds just as well as the Pro 52 can.
Of course, in both scenarios, you need the FM7 for FM synthesis sounds. FM7 also beats out the Reaktor FM synthesis due to flexibility of programming.
If you want to program analog/FM hybrid sounds, do it on an FM7.
Is that right?

BTW, Summa, if you don't mind sending me those FM7 presets you made, I'd love to get them. I can't import them yet, because I only have the demo, but if they won't be up on the net for a while, I could use them when I do get FM7.

 

what? the pro52 is sooo easy to use, who needs presets,then??

sorry, I do not see your argument fm7 ..
fm7 is for fm sounds.. if you want the fm synthesis, you may want fm7, .. if you want subtractive synthesis with supereasy control / editing: use pro52..

if you want freedom and full control: use reaktor!

you should not think ybout "ready made sounds".. you should think: freedom, performance and creating new sound yourself!! thats the way..

there is no "rule" what to use..
up 2 u!

abynth is somewhere between pro52 and reaktor.. not modular, but lot more than the p5 emulation with some unusual FX..

 

Re: Buying Presets

Hi Howdy,

it's not that easy since FM7 don't provide you with ready to use standard waveforms. The operator waveforms are optimised for FM use so you at least have to have a little knowledge about FM - Synthesis to create full sounding analog style waveforms. Other than that the results will be pretty disappointing ...
So it's much easier to create subtractive type sound with Pro-52 as long as you don't have some experience with FM synth...

I can't send you an email, it seems you set that option to no...

 

Re: Re: Buying Presets

Summa,
Fixed the e-mail option. It should work now. Sorry about that.

RE: Creating analog synth sounds -- Thanks for clarifying about subtractive synthesis in Pro 52 and FM7. I think that answers my question about them. It sounds like it answers the questions of the original posters also.
A lot of these questions come down to how much time and effort a person is willing to put into sound creation.
To expand on what Moogulator said, Reaktor is the mad scientist's laboratory for sound creation. It has it all.
The nice thing is that NI synths don't seem to have too much overlap of functions. They each do their own thing rather well.