Grainstates: "Pretty" But Useless???

Gspin -

I entirely agree that the "lure of the new toy" can be extremely distracting, and it's a tendency that everyone that uses technology in their artistic process needs to guard against. Using something (a tool, a sound, a process, a technique, whatever) simply because it is new & shiny, without consideration of why you're using it and how it furthers your artistic goal is an easy trap to fall into. I know that I've been guilty of it off and on across my years of music making, and I'm sure that most other people have as well. I do think however that most people learn to see that pitfall (and hopefully to try and overcome it) if they seriously pursue music making for more than a few years, and get a clear idea of what their actual musical/artistic/aesthetic goals are.

At the same time, I have to disagree with your statement that "the sounds should be the icing, not the cake." A score (in the broadest sense of the word) is just a guide for reproducing a work, not the work itself; until it is actualized into sound, it doesn't exist. So many factors and decisions involved in that process of actualization (the arrangement, the instrumentation, the tempo, the texture, the degree of fidelity to the score, the performers, the location, the context, etc etc) can completely alter "what it really conveys," and until that process takes place, you don't actually know what the results are.

The map is not the territory, as the saying goes. The best recipe in the world is just that, an interesting map, nothing more, nothing less, until you actually pick your ingredients, make it and taste it.
I think that if you remove the icing, you'll discover that there's no cake underneath it..

----

Just to throw my 2 cents in on the rest of the discussion.. it seems odd to me to consider any given ensemble/patch/tool "useless." Not all tools will be useful to all people, nor should they be. A welding torch is very useful for a sculptor, but less so for a woodworker, and potentially catastrophic for a watercolorist. That doesn't make it a worthless tool, just a specialized one. To jump back to the cake metaphor -- Curry powder isn't an ingredient I want to use when I'm baking a bundt, but that doesn't make it a "useless" ingredient, just a misplaced one.

I have no use personally for 95% of the softsynth emulators that most Reaktor users seem to be focused on, but that's just because my goals are more specialized (or flakey, if you're feeling less generous) in a different direction, not because the actual tools have no value.

Anyway, enough blah blah from me..
-E. Cook
http://www.simulated.net
http://www.cracklenite.com

 

I agree E. Cook, "icing" may be too diminuitive. It's all a matter of degrees and, in fact, I think all composers, even the most confident (with one notable exception) are always ultimately absorbed with the question "yes, but HOW DOES IT SOUND?" in their music's actualization.

Secondly, I was just trying to provoke a discussion with the title to the thread. I'm sorry. I am glad it has attracted a lot of very interesting comments, including yours. Of course Grainstates and other ensembles can and are being used by people, I am sure, very creatively. I was just curious to hear their impressions.

Anyway, 'nuff said.

By the way...

...what is a "bundt"? (and I am not Greek either)


cheers

gspin

 

heh... what a duality.

I find the assumption that the scoresheet is more important than the spectrogram silly. You talk about progressive harmonies and the "next big step" but you are seemingly closing your mind to the big changes of the day. Are you certain you are not misunderstanding the next great thing "during [your] lifetime"? Just asking. Music is organized sound... I'm just looking at it in my own way.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with Steve Reich. He gave a lecture about his radical techniques and his turning his back on traditions... I talked to him after and he asked me if I wrote music. I said yes and he asked who I had studied with. I said that I was working on my own and he said that "you're not a composer, then."

As far as being worried about when some kids surpasses my sounds... again you're not seeing what I'm seing... being concerned with sound does not automatically make the sounds a gimmick, as you are assuming.

 

Hey don't get me wrong about sounds! I wouldn't be a Reaktor user if I thought that sounds are a gimmick. This is really my own little guilt trip: I know that if something sounds really awesome because I have used a great ensemble or patch or whatever, it generally isn't my doing. All I am saying is it pays to pay attention to what we are playing in addition to what sounds we are making.

As to Reich, what a nice piece of encouragement that was!! That's typical of the caste/elitist mentality which relies on its rules and systems to isolate itself from the outside. Incidentally, I find Reich to be a tad bit overrated and generally underwhelming, although he did express a new concept musically (there you go!). To counter what Reich said, Stravinsky used to say that musical instruction can often stifle creativity.

But whatever... I didn't mean to start a snowstorm over one (very-respectably-useable-by-whoever so wishes-including me) ensemble.

As a fellow New Yorker, I hope you'll forgive my taste for a little controversy here and there.

cheers

gspin

 

gspin --

of course. i just blow hot air about this at the touch of a button, less to do with you than my ultra-snobby bandmate.

I'd love to check out some avant-g harmonies -- maybe you'll tell me when and where something good is going to be performed...?

anyway, peace.

 

Social Anthems, Seduced Hermits, Lingual Origin

Sounds as music? Music as sound? I don't agree. I have asked the question, like plenty have; what IS music? Not because I don't know but because its always interesting to see what responses you get. I am not convinced there is a single definition. But what is usually not discussed are things like: The social side of music and how it brings people together for war, grieving, and reproduction; how musical sensitivity and talent co-evolved with human speech, and also how music has always engaged technology in assisting in its execution and production. The other thing not usually addressed is how people are seduced by sound and the wondrous things they can explore in the privacy and safety of their personal studios.

The usual breakdown is something containing: time, notes, counterpoint, harmony, and something to do with human ceremony.

Anthropologically, every culture has produced something that resembles a musical ceremony. Some cultures even have a caste of individuals specialized and trained for this ceremony. Why? Because human expansion and radiation coincided with the speech mutation. It brought about alot more than oh baby oh baby oh baby. I mean, people were smart, but they had no...objects. Or information. Speech allowed a new degree of cooperation that involved a new social order amongst individuals, and information to be shared. It essentially allowed small human groups to subsist on alot less biomass because they became collectively more experienced and mature via the oral tradition.

But learning must have been difficult at first. It must have involved a high degree of repetition and I could picture primitive people all repeating the same phrase over and over again. But in order to syncronize individuals, a carrier frequency or rhythm must be established (protosapien smpte, nah, mtc). The nursery rhymes we recite for our youngsters hint at how we kick start the behaviours that arise from the lingual mutation. But thats all speech. What about music?

Well, I think certain speech patterns that contained vital information were too important to lose. Of the people that had that speech thing going on, the ones that had the strongest motor were able to form a collective speech memory for REALLY critical information. Like what females appreciate, how not to anger the gods, and how to be brave when hunting. I think regular speech was usually about mundane things, but the REALLY important stuff was made into music. This was all before papyrus. Musical sensitivity, tonal memory and a good sense of rhythm was ADAPTIVE for the group because it was the earliest form of record keeping, and essentially critical dialog from one generation to the next.

(snip)...>>

Music is NOT just for recreation. And the people who make music should do so with a life or death seriousness. All music should have a vocal because thats were it first came from, and how most people listen to it. Even if a voice is not there, the instruments should be somewhat vocal.

Even though we live in an age of pure information exchange at the limit of eliminating privacy and individuality; music can still communicate important things. But the musical commodity preys upon these instincts and capitalizes our desire to share in something important.

Reaktor is beautiful software, and my vice of choice.

-sleen

 

and i'm thinking: create a pastry whose layers interpenetrate ... where does the icing end and the cake begin? ;-)

rick

 

is it possible for a sound to exist without form?

i don't think so. every sonic event has, by definition, a form: it begins, it lasts, it changes over time, it ends. if you accept this, then whether or not to invest a composition with form becomes a moot point, because everything one composes has form.

this is the area that really interests me these days ... the formal structures that arise out of the sounds themselves.

rick

 

i have had ugly encounters with steve reich and know many others who have also suffered him, and i can say, without exaggeration, that he's a bit of an arrogant insecure testosterone-poisoned jerk. and, oh yeah, most of his music goes on my nerves too ... ;-)

rick

 

Re: Social Anthems, Seduced Hermits, Lingual Origin

i don't think anyone can say what music is for or not for. it is ... whatever it is: ritual, pillow talk, mathematics, dance, background, heavy, light, serious, silly, etc. ad infinitum homo sapiens sapiens.

again, i don't think music deserves any "shoulds" ... it's way too vast for that.

rick

 

Please, no apologies, it's a good thread, and the title has inspired a good discussion! I came off as too strident in my tone, I think, as I was touching on issues that I get worked up about on a fairly regular basis. Like one of the other posters said, I wasn't reacting so much as to what you said as the general "score vs. sound" theme.

It's a kind of cake.

-Eric
http://www.simulated.net
http://www.cracklenite.com

 

I really do hope to be able to (and hopefully in our lifetime!)


cheers

gspin

 

Re: Social Anthems, Seduced Hermits, Lingual Origin

Is that anthropolically (I mean factually) correct? I always thought we were percussive before we ever went vocal... hmmmm.

In any event, if you really want to get into music and deontology, I always thought the beauty of music is its ability to express the ineffable. Words (not necessarily the vocals per se) just spoil the whole thing if you ask me...

okay, okay... that's an exaggeration but, you know what I mean... in my view the greatest music has been without lyrics (or vocals for that matter). But, again, degustibus...


cheers

gspin

 

So... I take it you've... not seen.. "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"..

oh, well...



gspin

 

I'm still thinking about Rachmiel's idea - a gallery, of sorts, to experience moments of sonic transcendence - much like what may be experienced while viewing visual art.

One idea would be to have a call for work within various parameters - say less than 30 seconds, using a particular ensemble (or combination of - grainstates and clix are my two of my favorites), and/or tied to a theme.

Might be posted on a web site, where creators could provide details on the creation - and be a great place for folks to share just what it is going on in the privacy of our studios.

thoughts?

 

wunnaful idea! 30 seconds sounds about right for a max for something like this ... or maybe up to 1 minute? i also like the idea of using one ensemble to do this ... in the case of a sampler (like grainstates), maybe everyone should use the same sample also?

i nominate you to get this set up ... i'll be an avid submitter of works!

rachMiel

 

I've actually been toying around with a site like this for a while, and have it mostly done. If anyone would be interested in hearing more about it, please write me directly -- I would be happy to tell more about it (and it would help me get the last 10% of it done and opened up to the public!)

-Eric
ecook@simulated.net
http://www.simulated.net
http://www.cracklenite.com