Hardware, Hardware, Hardware

Well, nearly every band recording I've made so far uses my Zoom8080. Not that GR4 isn't good, but, it really comes down to lack of small portable box. I'm thinking of using my lappy, but, I'll still need an external usb soundcard and have to take both that and guitar to every session...on a pedal bike lmao.

 

"if you look at REAL TONE for the pros, they will always buy a truck full of REAL equipment"

Really? lets have a look at who uses the AXE by Fractal Audio.

Ty Tabor

King’s* X, The Jelly Jam

Dweezil Zappa

Zappa Plays Zappa

Chris Traynor

Gavin Rossdale, Helmet, Orange 9mm

Greg Howe

Solo Recording Artist, Justin Timberlake, Michael Jackson

Jeff Loomis

Nevermore

Jeff Schroeder
The Smashing Pumpkins, *The Lassie Foundation

Peter Thorn

Chris Cornell, LA Session Player

Steve Stevens

Billy Idol, Atomic Playboys

Marty Friedman

Megadeth, Cacaphony

Adrian Belew

King Crimson, Tom Tom Club, Frank Zappa

Dan Spitz

Anthrax, DeuxMonkey

Dean Parks

Studio Musician, Steely Dan, Michael Jackson

By the way, hardware is real. No matter if there is analog components or digital components.

"We should rather be looking forward to the next generation Guitar Rig which can be controlled via a multitouch-screen"

Cool feature...but do I really need it considering I have foot controllers and midi controllers...NO...where are your hands when you play guitar akay? Personally I don't want to have to control anything with my hands except for my guitar.

 

i think we're on the same page, midnightrider.

At the core of all of this, it's not necessarily a "Dedicated Hardware" vs. "Computer w/Software" argument, as much as a "It works and is reliable" vs. "It usually works and it's quirky as hell". I'm a loyal guy to the stuff I like, but in order for me to like it, it has to pass the "gorilla vs. samsonite luggage" test. I admit I am very demanding of my gear, and being a live performance animal, there are certain sacrifices I am willing to make for the sake of reliability. I"m not an elitist, though, either. I love my Behringer FCB1010.

I'm about to crack open the new public beta of 4.0.8 and expect to spend some more time beating my head against the wall. Hope springs eternal.

As for a touch screen...way down the list of priorities for me. I'd rather see a window that is re-sizable with controls that allow data entry for values.

 

I totally agree with your statement.
"It works and is reliable" vs. "It usually works and it's quirky as hell"
This should be the number one priority of any manufacturer of software or hardware like GR.

But for me it does come down to a "Dedicated Hardware" vs. "Computer w/Software" type thing. My argument for this is not only convenience but safety, among other things. There is no way that I would want to bring my laptop to a gig. There are way too many ways in which a laptop can be damaged or broken in such an environment. A 2U rack unit is the safest and most convenient way to get GR to and from a gig. Not to mention using it at the gig.

A short list of possible fatalities for a laptop

Could get damaged or broken at Load In
Spilt Drink
Knocked over from a drunkard
Knocked over from band member (could be that same drunkard)
Knocked over due to someone tripping on a cable.
Something gets dropped on it
Could get damaged or broken at Load Out

Leave the laptops to the DJ's. Give me a rack unit any day. Please!

 

To be fair, all electronic gear is subject to the same amount of damage - more so even for pedals on the floor. Rack mount PCs are cheap; you can get one for $500 and still have enough power for GR. The major con for a laptop based rig is obviously stability, and if I ever used my laptop at a gig I'd have a backup rig like a cheap multi FX processor. However, benefits of a rack mount PC: built tough, upgradable, flexible, can run multiple programs (a DAW, other NI programs, or Bome's midi translator!), cheap, powerful and available now. If a stable system is keeping you from using GR live, invest in a rack mount PC and don't wait for NI to build something. Stable/reliable computer solutions do exist. If you prefer a laptop for portability, invest in a toughbook.

In my gigging experience - if it's electronic, it's fallible. My gnx4's main circuit board is bent or corroding or something because it randomly drops the audio signal 3dB. Also the wah never stays calibrated. also the power jack has degraded and easily loses connection. potentiometers and switches get dirty and noisy. preamps get burned out. one time a screw came loose inside my base amp and shorted out the whole board - that sucked. anyway, a GR hardware system would solve a lot of stability issues, but I think it'd have to be a completely separate product, like the typical fixed-chain floor processor. NI would just dump their simulations into a general DSP, add a simple interface and make it usb editable - but to fully run GR, I think a PC is needed.

 

daverlee,
I think your missing my point. No one in their right mind is going to try to tell you that a rack unit is unsusceptible to damage. But a unit is fare less likely to acquire damage if it is housed in a rack. Why do you think they make racks anyway. They are not just for storing units. They are for protecting them to.

I think its unnecessary to bring up your rack mounted pc idea again. We've already agreed that it wont solve any of the issues. Not to mention it would cost an arm and a leg to do it right and get the best components for a setup like that. And there is no guarantee that you would get the results you want anyway.

A GR hardware unit would not have to be a completely separate product. Have you done any research into to Eleven Rack? It runs the Eleven software that came out first.

 

Soon to be released http://www.guru3d.com/news/aopen-xc-mini-gp7ahd-nettop-eschews-atom-for-core-2-duo--nvidia-ion/

Time to build your own

 

midnightrider,

no argument from me re: the virtues of rackmount hardware vs. computers on stage. Given my current gigging situation, that is less of an issue for me now than it might have been a few years ago. But, I'd at least be willing to drag a laptop out to a gig if the whole GRig system proved itself to be reliable. But I absolutely would be carrying hardware rack back-up, just in case, and I'd be putting the laptop in the safest of safe protected areas (if there is one) on stage.

As I delve into the new beta release 4.0.8, I see that Snapshots have not returned yet. So, the dozens upon dozens of really cool presets and sounds I created on GR3 are still unable to be used in GR4Pro. The master FX addition is nice, but it means yet more new programming schemes. Is there any wonder why people like myself are hesitant to put all of their eggs in the GRig basket?

 

Midnightrider, I had really high hopes for the eleven rack until I read the manual. Page 15 shows a fixed chain of effects. I do not consider the eleven rack a hardware device running pc software. the software is only a host/editor for protools. It doesn't do any computing. For NI to develop a hardware device would require limiting the flexibility of the software. I have never found a hardware device that offered total flexibility like GR. They could make a fixed-chain version of GR, and they could easily make their system more flexible than their competitors - but a DSP can not run a full version of GR. GR runs on an operating system, which needs a cpu. for a DSP hardware device to be able to do what a computer does would cost quite a bit more than a rack mount pc. Symbolic Sound makes a multi-DSP hardware device that runs a program called KYMA which is totally flexible, and I think it costs $4000 or so. It isn't a guitar effects program, but it does do intense dsp processing like GR in real time.

Many guitarists are perfectly content with a fixed chain as long as the sims are good, especially for purists. For this demographic, NI should make a hardware device even if it limits flexibility. I was drawn to GR for it's flexibility, however, and would not want anything less than what is offered now (but we do need snapshots back, soon).

 

daverlee,
Im guessing you didn't read the original post. Or you forgot what I wrote.

"Maybe NI should team up with Muse Research and do something like the Receptor but specifically designed for GR."

http://www.museresearch.com/receptor2.php

Also, you should have kept reading about the Eleven Rack. On page 18 it clearly states.

"Signal Routing
The position of many of the devices in the signal chain can be changed. The order that effects units are plugged into each other can make a large difference in the sound you get.
Most effects can be moved anywhere before or after the amp and cabinet models. The FX Loop can be moved to one of four places; the beginning of the chain, before the amp and cab, after the amp and cab, or before the final output."

 

bingo!

 

oh...sweet

 

7. Amp Tone Controls (like the POD X3 Pro)
8. Parameter Controls (like the Boss GT-10)

 

Presence control like Zoom8080.

 

...

I *really* want to use GR live... because it sounds fantastic, better than any other modeler in the price range (I'd like an Axe-FX but not in position to buy that right now)... but there's no way in hell I'm gonna add the complication of playing through my laptop. No need to put my Macbook Pro through that wear and tear. And getting a rack-mounted computer to run GR is absurd; might as well save up for an Axe-FX.

I got GR3 through the $400 Komplete 5 deal. As a "throw-in", I feel it's incredible. Recording with it has been amazingly straight-forward and simple. The editing/visual interface is excellent.

Yamaha's MagicStomp, for example, was a fully software-driven stompbox. Would it be so hard to atleast offer the identical Kontrol floorboard except with built-in memory? I'd pay $500-600 for that board. It'd be much better than the Boss GT-10 or Line6 X3 Live.

Until then, I'm sooner inclined to just gig with a Pod Pro rack, despite the tonal inferiority and the worse editing interface.

 

Whats with all the hate for using a laptop live. It's not that big of a deal. My Macbook and RK3 fit into my backpack with all my cables. All I need from there is a PA to plug into. Maybe I'm one of the lucky few but my Mac RARELY crashes, like maybe twice in the past year. Plus, it doubles as a DAW and, now that the RK3 will transmit midi, I can use it to control other softs as well such as Amplitube and Revalver.

For the years that I've been frequenting this forum I've never seen people so set on the idea that a rack is the solution to all their woes. I have, however, seen many people come up with creative solutions for gigging with a laptop and heard many, many success stories from people who tour with GR.

 

Lastcaress83, to quote: "my Mac RARELY crashes, like maybe twice in the past year."

That would be 2 more crashes than I have experienced EVER (4 years) with my current rig. I must have an unusually low tolerance for processor crashes for my live rig. I can tell you this, though, that REGARDLESS of what equipment I use live, if it screws me over just ONCE in a live situation, or even at sound check, its days are numbered.

Also, the qualm isn't necessarily directed at "hating" on using laptops live, but the fact that, IMHO NI has produced software in Guitar Rig that is in a constant state of flux, and never really completed, and also combined with the fact that end user results vary wildly depending on computer-i/o configuration.

The request for a dedicated form of hardware, at least on my part, is to FORCE design and engineering to FINISH THE JOB and live with it for a period of time. My prime example is how GR3 used snapshots as a (widely used) method for changing sounds via foot switch, but then in GR4PRO, they abandoned it completely, making upgrade transitions of patches extremely awkward and unnecessarily time consuming. Also, a hardware solution would guarantee consistent performance (primarily with latency and quality of audio), and would break the necessary ties that force the issue of computer processor requirements.

As you've stated, GRig is used live, and there is no denying it. I have used it in performance in a very limited capacity for a cover gig that didn't demand more than 2 or 3 variations on my primary tone. However, I do other gigs that require extensive "power-user" levels of programming and control that really put GRig through its paces. They are quite esoteric and have proven to be problematic, which causes me to hesitate making GRig the primary source of my live rig sounds.

Certainly I could spend $2k or more on a nice laptop or rackmount computer, but for that money, I'd sooner go for a unit like the Fractal Axe-Ultra b/c it is simply a better sounding, more pro-oriented unit. If you've had great success with GRig, more power to you. All I'm saying is that once you enter certain levels of programming and put higher demands on the performance of GRig, results are spotty, inconsistent, and we hear a lot of "will be fixed in the next update", ad infinitum.

 

That must be it. My primary choice of amplification for guitar is inherently unreliable so from my perspective GR4 and a mac is a great deal better than my old tube amp and cab setup in terms of reliability. If you haven't had issues for four years then you seem to have something figured out.

 

So, I didn't know this but Muse Research's Receptor 2 comes loaded with Komplete 5, Guiter Rig 3 included. $2500.

but still, $2000 just for the rack unit. That's a little to rich for me.

 

Well people, I'm definately going the lappy route. I'm in the process of buying an E-mu 02 pcmcia card and then I'll be bagging myself one of those cheap E-mu 1616M on ebay. If it works out, then, both bass and guitar will run through laptop setups.

Band practice will never be the same lol.