Harmonic Mixing... Seeing Key Adjustments in the Deck veiw

Precisely. I can glance at 50 tracks that I already know will probably harmonically match based on the camelot key and choose from there instead of the whole collection. Also, there's no reason I can't stray from the lot if I'm using the broken down portion of a track.

I know what sounds good, but not being a full fledged musician I couldn't tell you on my own what key something's in (working on it though). That doesn't stop me from producing my own tracks. I know what sounds right, just can't play it live on a keyboard, you know?

There's always dissenters. It won't stop the technology, and I'm sure NI has some of these things in the line up for when it's practical on their end to implement them. First let's get the thing all ironed out, right?

 

+1

great idea!

 

Each full number is a semitone, or half step. One semitone will get you one half step to the next note (c to d flat.)

 

In the "camelot notation" (1A-12A), jumping a semitone means "taking seven steps":

1A Key+1.0 = 8A
1A Key-1.0 = 6A

...or, to use Rasmuffin's "C" (5A in camelot notation):

5A Key+1.0 = 12A (D flat)
5A Key-1.0 = 10A (B)

...pretty simple, actually

Edit: I just experimented a bit with the key adjustment. To me, it sounds like in Eco-mode (which I usually use, since it currently is the one that works best with timecode control) I can get away with +-1.0 change in key. In HiQ-mode it sounds quite good until +-2.0, but after that it starts getting either into "a strumpf-attack" or "messenger from the underworld"... with non-vocal tracks I can take it to +-3.0 in HiQ-mode, but not further before I start vomiting uncontrollably due to the sound quality dropping...

 

Thank you both
but if this is correct
1A 2A 3A 4A 5A 6A 7A 8A 9A 10A 11A 12A (Camelot)
G# D# A# F C G D A E B F# C#. (Keys)

I can understand why
5A Key "C" -1 should be 10A "B"

but why is
5A Key "C" +1 = 12A "D flat"? I thought 12A is C#?

What did i miss or get wrong?

 

Nope, Camelot notation is nowhere that straight forward

The camelot notation is designed for the benefit of harmonic mixing; you can go one step forward (or one step backward) or stay in the same key harmonically. However, going from G# to D# is not harmonic.

Camelot notation maps to keys like this:
1A = A flat (minor)
2A = E flat (minor)
3A = B flat (minor)
4A = F (minor)
5A = C (minor)
6A = G (minor)
7A = D (minor)
8A = A (minor)
9A = E (minor)
10A = B (minor)
11A = F sharp (minor)
12A = D flat (minor)

...there are also mappings for major keys (1B-12B) but I can never remember those (and they are somewhat rarer in current day music than minor keys, so I don't actually bother with them)

Edit: To sum it up; camelot notation does not equal the cycle of fifths - even though they bloody well look damn similar

 

ok, then my confusion is because I thought the 12 different Keys mixmeister fusion has stored in the tags of my tracks were already the 12 camelot numbers (and i thought i had verified that as MM in parallel also assigns a Key codenumber 1..12 only visible in MM)
unfortunately it still remains unclear to me how these 12 MM generated keys will fit to the Camelot notaion (and I also looked up the colored wheel to find your listings to sit in the inner circle 1A-12A, but i cannot even find a G# or D# in that wheel - also not in the outer circle 1B-12B :S

 

Quite interesting really... I've never even noticed that mixmeister doesn't use the camelot notation... funny thing that; I've automatically thought they would (since they are marking the items with the same kind of coding). It looks like mixmeister uses the forementioned circle of fifths instead.

What the difference between that and the camelot wheel is, I honestly don't know - I'm not very good with music theory (I'm a DJ - everyone knows that means I know nothing of "real music").

Edit: Ok, took me a while to find this, but the reason the items are different is quite simple; for some notes there are two different names - the original camelot system uses the "flat names" (except - for some reason - there seems to be "F sharp" listed) while mixmeister uses the "sharp names".

C sharp = D flat
D sharp = E flat
F sharp = G flat
G sharp = A flat

Otherwise, there don't seem to be any other differences
---

So... in fact it seems like camelot notation actually is that straight forward

 

It would definitively be extremely helpful if the key could be changed in semitones.

Harmonic mixing is important to me - I don't like un-harmonic mixes, especially if the DJ has a tendency towards actionism or harmonically mismatches two or more tracks forever.
From the 20 most recent tacks in my favorite playlist I found the majority to be in minor, the rest mixolydian, none major. Therefore I am glad that I can enter free text into the Key field to accomodate more than just major or minor scales (example: '4B 8 D#mixolyd' or equivalent '4B 8 Eb mixolyd'). The popdown list has notations (German, not English style) for minor and major only.

I know very little about music theory, but after wiki-ing a bit I came to the comclusion that the "Camelot Circle" is indeed just an easier and better memorabe notation for the Circle of Fifths (or the harmonic cadences derived thereof). The numbers follow exactly the sequence of keys on the Circle of Fifths:

Code:

C   G   D   A   E   B   F#  Db  Ab  Eb  Bb  F
8B  9B  10B 11B 12B 1B  2B  3B  4B  5B  6B  7B
a   e   h   f#  db  ab  eb  bb  f   c   g   d
8A  9A  10A 11A 12A 1A  2A  3A  4A  5A  6A  7A

+1 goes to the dominant, -1 to the subdominant of a tonic
from A to B and backwards goes to a tonic parallel (had to look this one up).

But 2B+1=3B is really much easier to calculate than F# + 7 semitones = Db.
The benefits from the Camelot Circle come from giving consecutive numbers around the Circle f Fifths and assigning the same number to the tonic parallel (8B C = 8A a). If C was 1A and not 8B it would become more obvious that the Camelot Circle and the Cicle of Fifths are identical.

The Camelot Ring is useful to easily find matching music and somewhat to transpose it correctly (difference * 7 semitonees modulo 12 semitones), but has the same limitations as the Circle of Fifths (western diatonic scales, and thereof mainly minor and major).

To sum things up I post a little text table I created for myself a couple of days ago. Please note that I am not (yet) sure where the diatonic scales other than major (A) and minor (B) fit best into the "Camelot Wheel". For your understanding (and mine): In the line containing chromatic 0 Camelot 8A/8B are all the diatonic scales which require only white keys on the piano keyboard. C mayor goes C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, a minor goes A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A, G mixolydian goes G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G and so on. If yo want to transpose the tracks, then the chromatic number column is most useful. If you want to mix e minor 9A to D major 10B then the difference is 7-2=5 semitones. Sorry that this looks a little ugly, the table includes english (b-er) / german (#-er) notation:

Code:

Chrom   Camel.  Major   Camel.  Minor   Dorican Phrygi  Lydian  Mixolyd Lokrian
atic    Key     Dur     Key     Moll    Dorisch Phrygi  Lydisch Mixolyd Lokri
                Ionian          Aeolian
11      1B      B/H     1A      ab/g#   Db/C#   Eb/D#   E       F#      Bb/A#
6       2B      F#      2A      eb/d#   Ab/G#   Bb/A#   B/H     Db/C#   F
1       3B      Db/C#   3A      bb/a#   Eb/D#   F       F#      Ab/G#   C
8       4B      Ab/G#   4A      f       Bb/A#   C       Db/C#   Eb/D#   G
3       5B      Eb/D#   5A      c       F       G       Ab/G#   Bb/A#   D
10      6B      Bb/A#   6A      g       C       D       Eb/D#   F       A
5       7B      F       7A      d       G       A       Bb/A#   C       E
0       8B      C       8A      a       D       E       F       G       B/H
7       9B      G       9A      e       A       B/H     C       D       F#
2       10B     D       10A     b/h     E       F#      G       A       Db/C#
9       11B     A       11A     f#      B/H     Db/C#   D       E       Ab/G#
4       12B     E       12A     db/c#   F#      Ab/G#   A       B/H     Eb/D#

 

LOL

THIS WAS HELPFUL!
(Thanks)

PS: I posted about this issue in the MM forums as well, let's wait to see what they will come up with...

PS2:

Coming back to the "Feature request" nature of this thread: To be required then in my opinion:
A:
Ability to include Key Scanning as a native feature of TPro
B(new):
Option to choose which "notation" is to be used for reference (for example based on badibeat's research)
C:
Allow to choose for Key +- Rotaries to show either arbitrary numbers or to allow changes only in full key steps, hence to display the new current key instead of a number
D:
Option to display original and altered key values in Decks A..D when track is loaded (just as for BPM)

 

And you said you knew very little of music theory

I'd say that was a lot more than most DJs ever bother to learn (for example, I've been playing for 20 years, and most of what you wrote was hazy at best for me)

 

+111 on this one
bring it on

 

Hi DiscoNova and Rudi-J

Thank you for the positive feedback. It is much appreciated.

Returning to the feature request:

In Traktor Pro 1.1.2 the pitch can be adjusted in a musical way using the "KEY" parameter (these are indeed scare quotes) in the range of +-12 semitones with a resolution of 1 cent (1/100 semitone). The two buttons allow to increment / decrement the pitch in steps of a quarter tone or 50 cents, so pushing the increment button twice transposes the song one semitone up. The steps are relative to the current value, so if one adjust the pitch to +0.13 semitone and increments it two semitones by pushing the increment button four times, one ends up at +2.13 semitones, as it should be. I have not tried to use this with a controller, though.

The basic functionality is all there, the terminology used may be somewhat off or lost in translation.

- The following has to be fixed and is not really a feature request: the 'Key' display in the deck heading is not functional. It's stuck to +0.00.

- This may be intentional, but I think it has also to be fixed:
When the key lock button on the deck (Transport/Key Lock controller, the quarter note icon on the right of the waveform display) is turned off and on, then the pich returns to the original value. When the KEY button in the mixer section (Mixer/Key On controller) is turned off and on, then the pitch is reset to 0.00. I'd prefer if it was not reset.

- As a feature request I would like to have a 'Pich' or 'Pitch Offset' field per track to correct odd pitches when a track is loaded. Two tracks being a couple of semitones off may result in harmony, tension or dissonance. But if they are off half a quarter of a semitone, then result is in most cases horrible.

- The 'Key' field should probably be renamed to 'Scale'. I would want to keep this as free text. Using "Camelot Wheel" notation has it's uses, but I still want to be more specific.

- For the automatic analysis: This sounds nice, but I doubt it is even possible to get reasonable results, at least for the stuff I listen to. I use a keyboard to play along while the song plays to get the scale, but quite often my results differ from what is printed on the leaflets for DJs (which doesn't mean that I am right). And people will mix other scales than the western diatonic types. Also much like the beat rate, the scale may shift during a track.
I'd rather have every label put their releases directly into discogs and the developers at discogs provide a scale, style and BPM record per track - one database to look up for all applications.


Much ado about terminology:

Traditional turntables were not able to alter tempo and pitch independently, so many of the musical terms got interchangeable in the context (jargon). With one's voice alone this has always been possible, and now with modern signal processing separate tempo and pitch control has been brought back to pre-recorded music.

I collected some basic terms:

Rhythmic - pattern in time:
Parameter to adjust: tempo
Affects: beat rate (measured in BPM)
Related: beat, groove
Categorisation: metric (metrum, "bars")
Effects in mix: synchronity, phase between tracks

Tonal - pattern in frequency:
Parameter to adjust: pitch (frequency)
Affects: key (pitch of a tone, key on the piano keyboard, MIDI note number, Pitch Bend)
Related: interval, chord, melody
Categorisation: scale ("key")
Effects in mix: harmony, tension, dissonance or out of tune between tracks

I am aware that also in the whole music history and theory many terms are used for multiple items or used inconsistently. And I pick them as I browse through the wiki. But things are a lot easier to understand if they are named consistently and somewhat logically. 'key' is overloaded with meanings and leads to confusion.

badibeat

 

I made color covers from Camelot circle for personal use and to share it with you. Pictures are in jpg and in 82x22 pixels, so you see them well in browser small cover art. Unfortunatly the pictures are a bit blured in big cover art section in low left corner, but I can live with that

Download: http://rapidshare.com/files/23918528...lot_Covers.rar

Preview: http://www.shrani.si/f/x/2b/1rXDJeHj/camelot-preview.jpg

 

This is really good work.
Thanks for posting this on the forum.

Karlos

 

Update about my Post in the MixMeister Forums ("Workshop")
Date of Post: May 29.: 0 views (?) 0 replies untill today

 

Guys, is it normal that you cannot see the KEY when using TPRO via the Itunes node?

 

I've understood it that you can only see certain details from "within your collection". Since the iTunes node only "accesses" iTunes, it stands to reason that the key information is not visible. At least - that is how I've assumed it to be...

 

As far as I know iTunes doesn't support the INITIALKEY tag.
This means that the key isn't in the XML data Traktor displays as you open the iTunes node.