1. Please be aware, the forum will be down on Monday 21st from 15:00 - 17:00 CET while the forum software is updated and Mick drinks cocktails. Thanks in advance for your understanding.
    Dismiss Notice

Harmonic Mixing... Seeing Key Adjustments in the Deck veiw

Discussion in 'Feature Suggestions' started by DJ_AJ, Jan 25, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Dj Tomek

    Dj Tomek NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    258
    Ok guys, thanks for the explanation.
    Is there, however an option so Itunes really "sees" the Key?
     
  2. DiscoNova

    DiscoNova NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,200
    Of course there is. The option is that Apple implements this non-standard tag into iTunes. Though, somehow I don't see that option ever really seeing the light of day ;)
     
  3. rainerh

    rainerh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,465
    I think it's more the question if Apple will implement something which is a standard tag in ID3 v2.4
    => http://id3.org/id3v2.4.0-frames
    search for TKEY
     
  4. DiscoNova

    DiscoNova NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,200
    Actually, since we were talking about iTunes, I automatically only thought about the AAC-tags.

    Edit: And yes, I know there is a tag for the key in ID3 ... however, doesn't Traktor store the key information into some kind of custom tag? Unfortunately, since I personally only use AAC-audio, I'm not really tempted to convert something into MP3 just for testing purposes :)
     
  5. badibeat

    badibeat NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    68
    Sorry for being obstinate, but all I really miss in traktor Pro for harmonic mixing is a working Key display in the Deck Heading. Currently it is broken and always shows +0.00, regardless how the key / pitch is changed.
     
  6. buggles

    buggles NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    320
    +1

    i'd also like to see the comments tag in the deck heading - this is where i keep my key info - it would also allow me to put any info i deem pertinent in the deck heading
     
  7. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    Messages:
    154
    The funny thing is, native instruments had this all figured out years ago. It worked flawlessly in traktor 2 but when 3 came out it was broken and they never got around to fixing it. I ranted about this for years to no avail
     
  8. badibeat

    badibeat NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    68
    +++
    Great idea.
     
  9. buggles

    buggles NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    320
    Took some time to make some of my own camelot covers - they will display much cleaner in the larger album art window and fill the space. Have your way with them:

    http://rapidshare.com/files/255590264/Keycode_Covers.zip
     
  10. koopa

    koopa NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    102
    BTT: I like the idea of the key code displayed under the key knob

    +1
     
  11. dybvandal

    dybvandal NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    202
    there is one problem here. the camelot system is patented it seems:
    http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/CommercialLicensing.aspx
     
  12. DiscoNova

    DiscoNova NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,200
    Well, I don't see that as too big of a problem. I know that in the U.S. (for example) you can patent almost anything, but these patents can be challenged (ie. because they are not actually original ideas to begin with).

    As has been seen, the "camelot notation" is nothing more than a strange mapping of the circle of fifths, that has been known and used since the 17th century (the only difference appears to be that in the traditional circle of fiths the "12 o'clock position" is held by C major / A minor, whereas in camelot the position is held by A major / D flat minor). The relative order of all the other keys around the circle is the same.

    What this means in terms of real life is that Native Instruments does not need to use the camelot notation, but can indeed define their own mapping between the keys and "easyvalues" (possibly make it compatible with the more musically accurate circle of fifths) or leave the whole mapping out; this is a relative mapping to begin with. NI doesn't even need to provide the mapping details, even less the "camelot wheel".

    Because the relative differences between keys in both mappings is the same, this would not be a problem. Whenever you went +1.0 from 1A you will still arrive at 8A, and if you went -1.0 from 1A you would ariive at 6A ... only difference would be what the mapping to actual key is ... and if you only used "easyvalue notation", this would not be a problem - after all, who cares what 1A "means"? What the users are interested in is that all 1As mix harmonically with all other 1As, 12As, 2As and 1Bs.

    And if they want to be really safe, they can choose to not use 1A, 2A, etc. at all, but can switch even that to something else (though this might be very inconvenient for users who don't understand the underlying theory).
     
  13. dybvandal

    dybvandal NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    202
    Right, this patent seems as bogus as can be and I hope someone gets this one thrown out eventually. Mapping it to another notation could also be entirely possible, the entire "challenge" is finding 2 distinct sets of ascii characters for which everybody knows their natural order. For all I care simply swapping the letters and numbers works. As in 1 is minor and 2 is major and scale is denoted by A,B,C,D,E,F,G ... I guess they decided to do things the other way around because its easier to grasp that A/B do not have any direct relation to actual key's.

    But legal concerns are probably still going to be a deterrent for NI. Maybe the first step is to get the EFF to get the patent thrown out.
     
  14. Rasmuffin

    Rasmuffin NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,584
    NI could easily obtain a license if they don't have one already. It's just necessary for Camelot to require a license so they don't lose ownership and control of the idea. Since one semitone is equal to a 6% pitch shift and I very rarely mix tracks that need to be pitched that far (lyrics start to sound chipmunky or slo-motion outside 4%) I hope to rely on the new keylock algorythm. Without lyrics it probably would sound fine though. I was thinking of making a small print out to put above the monitor that has the camelot coded key in the order found on a keyboard. But, since I'm usually pitching to half a semitone anyways It wouldn't really work. This could be really handy if using a DJM-800 with the key correction thingy I've never used.
     
  15. dybvandal

    dybvandal NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    202
    Sure they could obtain a license, but it adds to their costs. I am guessing the separation with TP and TSP is probably a result of them having to pay licensing fees for the timecode stuff. It just adds overhead, legal complexity and lets be honest .. its not that big a feature for NI to bother with this. So I fear that this patent trolling with the camelot wheel is enough to scare of NI from the entire concept of the circle of fifths.

    Anyways, I have contacted eff.org just now. Not sure if its big enough of a deal for them to care either.
     
  16. Rasmuffin

    Rasmuffin NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,584
    I know if I invented velcro I wouldn't be giving it away. I'd be mixing tunes on the deck of my yacht in the Bahamas. "I'm On a Boat!"
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yfISlGLNU"]YouTube - I'm On A Boat (ft. T-Pain) - Album Version[/ame]
    K, back on topic. :p
     
  17. DiscoNova

    DiscoNova NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,200
    This isn't actually the same thing. If you today "came up" with the thing and decided to called it a "hook&loop fastener" instead of "velcro", you couldn't patent it. Not even if the foundation of your idea was that its base color is red instead of black.

    It's the same thing with camelot notation; they didn't actually invent it. They just took a centuries old invention and painted it red.
     
  18. dybvandal

    dybvandal NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    202
    Btw, there is another somewhat minor issue. Writing the camelot notation to the key tag is actually a violation of the spec:
    http://www.id3.org/id3v2.4.0-frames#line-385

    But all that this means is that you should be writing the proper notation to the key field and then the software can choose to represent the relative distance between the scales in some visual and sortable way. But pondering it, the camelot notation is indeed the most efficient approach given our alphabet, numbering system and ascii character set.
     
  19. DiscoNova

    DiscoNova NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,200
    Oh, please don't let yourself be bound by an archaic format or it's default tagging scheme ;)

    There are other formats whose tags don't have such limitations as ID3 has. And even if you were to use MP3, you could always use a "private frame" to store that information. I believe traktor already does this for some data?
     
  20. dybvandal

    dybvandal NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    202
    Well the point of spec's is to encourage interoperability. If everybody just invents their own custom tags, then it prevents people from using different software components together without having to manually glueing them together. But sure, like I said, its not a huge stumbling block and there are various approaches. A custom tag being one, simply separating the data in the tag from the visual representation is another.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.