Hello Maschine, goodbuy Maschine

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Rolland Sybi, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    Hi guys,

    I have Maschine MK1, Audio Kontrol 1, few other stuff and many many NI apps. :eek::eek::eek:
    With the newest Mac OS the hardware is gone, and half of the apps does not work anymore too.
    :confused::confused::confused:
    I understand that tech progress render some older stuff outdated... o_OBUT! not always and I have discovered elsewhere it's different!

    As much as I love Native Instruments :)I start to be very disappointed :mad:on the policy NI have now. I need reliable system that works perfectly over time and have good retro compatibility:thumbsup:. Hey NI developers, few lines in the code could still keep Maschine MK1 on its legs :) :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    I've watched around for other apps and gears and actually I have discovered that others proposes to their customers and fans much deeper retro compatibility/reliability:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::):):):thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:.
    And I have found many firms being proposing such thing:thumbsup::):):). Particularly one from Berlin ;))) Their Newest gear is compatible down to MacOS 10.7! WOW! :):):)And they clearly stated that old gear is supported and new futures will be adapted as much as possible! WOW! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:WOW & WOW

    Sadly I'll stop buying NI hardware for now:(, I do not want to see MK3 being outdated in the next 2 or 3 Mac OS generations:(:(:(. That is not reliable. :(:(:(
    Sadly as I still LOVE Native Instruments, but I am a little "*£@%¨*¨......." :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


    I hope you do not see my post as a call to stop supporting NI:cool:. I just want to express my own feelings. Hope that is clear :)o_O

    Are there guys that have same feelings as me? Could you share your point of view? :p:p:p

    :DCheers;)
     
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  2. telecode101

    telecode101 NI Product Owner

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    381
    Hmm.. all my hardware and software works and I am on OS X 12.x I think. The only thing thats flaky is FL Studio. But the NI stuff is still rock solid.

    You way want to backup to a time machine and reinstall the OS and apps and see if that fixes it. A lot depends what else is on your system.
     
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  3. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    Hey Telecode101,

    The compromise/balance between the system and the gear is hard to find.

    I have photo, video and graphic apps on my computer too. My OS was 10.11 (El Capitan) - great OS, very stable and so.
    I could live with that OS for some time ahead, but I work every day with Capture One Pro and I need that one to be up to date. Unfortunately the latest version skip 10.11.

    So yeah, older NI gear incompatibility with the Mojave OS appeared as a catastrophe at first to me.

    I've been wandering around the web in fever, considering different solutions, and I've come up with a famous company from Berlin on their audio app / gear solutions. Jumping on another board will cost me +/- the same as updating to a new Maschine MK3 and new NI apps, so in the end I am pretty happy by opening up my horizons with some new staff. Translating projects from Maschine to "xxxxxx" is possible.... so.... well can I name another audio company here without being banned?

    It's like changing from Adobe Lightroom to Capture One Pro - "that has changed my life" > haha sounds weird, LOL,
    (for those who knows RAW development in photo area)
     
  4. AL’DREAD

    AL’DREAD NI Product Owner

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    4,158
    how about setting up multiple osx ?
     
  5. Deafkon

    Deafkon NI Product Owner

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    Yes, I still think maschine is a good buy.
     
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  6. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    Sounds legit. Probably worth a try.
    In the past I had a partitioned HD with different OSX.
    That is the reason I've made a copy of my El Capitan setup ;)
     
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  7. AL’DREAD

    AL’DREAD NI Product Owner

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    4,158
    Depending on what ports your Mac has got
    You could make an external, if you’ve got usbc ,I was thinking about doing this
    With one of these
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UGREEN-M...hash=item44400c8523:m:mFx4PsGJGfF2BXzgFRGuEng

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kingston...842582&hash=item593489ee09:g:PfQAAOSwDuZdbSYt
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  8. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    34
    I think the same, too. Maschine is an incredible cool tool for making music.

    Just from my point of view, now when buying a new gear I'll check on few things: for example the history of the "thing" to know how deep goes the compatibility. What's the support when the gear breaks down. How much does it cost to feed the "system" in order to have it alive overtime. How often a company tend to abandon their products/lines/series... Reliability, sustainability.

    Hold on.
    I now check on ethics too. So many products are produced based on slavery in poor countries. People are underpaid, exploited to the very last bone. I am fed up with this. As a consumer I want to be more responsible - Lot to learn in this field.
    example: YouTube channel IN THE MIX often talks about ethics when reviewing audio gear. I fully support that approach. :)
     
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  9. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    34
    Thanks for the link :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:, great solution!
    I do not want to put into the dust gear that still work perfectly in a correct setup so keeping older system alive sounds really legit.
     
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  10. AL’DREAD

    AL’DREAD NI Product Owner

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    4,158
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  11. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

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    1,763
    "That's the way she goes" as someone once said...

    You may be pointing the finger at NI but Apple also make it hard on developers to maintain compatibility because every single release of new OS requires developers to re-invest their time to make all their gear compatible as well as test things which is quite a strain on resources. That's a design to basically drop old tech and most companies place a lifespan on support for a hardware device for computers at around 10 years which is right on the money for Maschine MK1 (released 2009). Windows is a lot more forgiving in this area where compatibility is normally only an issue at a major update which is every 10 odd years anyway.

    I think you will find it is the same with any product line. Sure, some hardware is easy enough to maintain support for decades but often things lose support over time because people have moved on. I for one had a Presonus Firebox for 9 years since I was on Windows 2000 and then when Windows 10 came out I could not get drivers for Win10 any longer as it was unsupported so I was forced to either go back to Win7 or update my interface. I reluctantly invested in a new interface and appreciate the trouble free decade I got out my old one.

    It's almost impossible to look at the history of products and determine if you will get more than 10 years from them because things move fast and as stated, 10 years is the unspoken lifespan of support for products, anything beyond that is a bonus basically. You could easily just not update your system and stay still and enjoy Maschine and your older software longer, there is no "need" to update, people just feel they have to have the latest OS and features.

    Windows could be another option. Of course it is also not free of obsolescence as I demonstrated but it does not have such major updates that are designed to flush out old tech so hardware will tend to remain compatible for decades or be much easier to make work. I can still run some software I have from 25 years ago and apart from the audio interface, everything else I own still works from XP to Win10.

    Just think, if you paid $1k 10 years ago for Maschine that's $100 a year for using it. Many spend more than that on subscriptions to Netflix etc. so think of it as a 10 year subscription that now needs renewal, that seems to be the way people like to think these days.

    iPhone 1 was released in 2007.... how many people are still rocking that?
     
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  12. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    6,687
    Back in the day it was pretty normal to stay on an old OS version but since then things have changed, especially in the Apple world, even Windows seems to be going in the direction too (even though it seems better at providing legacy support or not breaking things with updates). Fighting this sort of technology trends is a lost battle IMO, but up to each one.
     
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  13. seedoflife

    seedoflife New Member

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    Great points through and through!

     
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  14. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    Hey, Many good points in all your exposé ;) (I cut the text not to take all the place in the quote;)
    I'll pick the "obsolescence" to comment on.
    European Parliament is fighting with programmed obsolescence by giving us some new laws. How far it goes and how honest are the new paragraphs, I am nor sure, but we as clients should make more pressure on companies to give us products with a longer life span, not just horribly expensive disposal products - smartphones are one to be stigmatized - they put irreplaceable batteries inside... well you know what I am talking about - Casey Neistat from New York started his carrier by pointing out Apple that did it with their iPhones.

    What could I make about smartphones personally? I do not buy them anymore. I only use old phones that still work.

    Another exemple: New trend in Berlin is: phones is only for phone calls (no need for smartphone anymore, and you reconnect with real people in real life ;), Yet you can cut through the city on the bike so get lose your car. Lowtech in one word. Those are just two examples. You can use lowtech in your everyday life. That is more viable in the long term for our planet.

    Haha, from Maschine to the ecology ;)
    Well the real problem is this: consumption, productions, wasting our planet resources. We are smart enough to rethink the way we act. Why do we choose the easy way that destroys in the end everything around.

    Do I need a new iPhone every year? Nope.
    How many old phones that still work do you have in your drawer?
     
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  15. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    34
    Haha one more thing ;) o_O
    Well we all know the quote you've start your text with.
    However, as nice as it sounds it's completely not what we should agree with. Not anymore.
    Its not legit anymore! That is not the way that she should go now. ;)
    Obsolescence is the first thing that should be banned ;)

    Do you agree with that guys?
     
  16. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    34
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  17. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,763
    I think it's just something one has to kind of accept when using different products together that have different independent development cycles.

    Companies need to make money and it costs considerable amounts to maintain support for things especially when you have software and hardware advancing and wanting to push forward but older tech requiring compatibility holding it back. We want things to work forever but rarely want to pay for it to be maintained.

    I have no great issue with this situation, tho I would love to see more programs like Ableton bought in where they "bought back" older Push 1 units for 30% off a Push 2 and donated them to schools. That was a really impressive move and instantly had me updating to a Push 2 and they received a lot of praise for that decision.

    I think if you want to maintain your gear for longer than that 10 year mark you need to plan ahead for that or move away from computers and into standalone gear. Most software developers recommend with Mac updates to never update as soon as it is released but to wait for word that your gear will work. When you hit a situation like this where things will no longer work you need to then decide if you will just stay at this version of OS. Your gear is not suddenly "useless" but you need to now make some adjustments/compromises on your end, we cannot possibly expect all developers in the entire chain to get together to work out how to keep things working forever. I'm sure you have updated your mac in all that time without too much thought.

    It's not the same as programmed obsolescence, it's just to do with the economics of managing old products while trying to also deliver new products. Just like when we moved from VHS to DVD, you still needed an old VHS player to play those older tapes because the DVD player wouldn't do it or you had to repurchase the stuff you wanted on DVD. Just because VHS stopped being manufactured or supported doesn't make all your tapes useless, you just need a machine that supports it and a TV that can connect to it.
     
  18. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    Yeah! that was (and probably still is) a unique move from any audio company out there. They literary gave for free Push 1 with free copies of Ableton to thousands of people. https://www.ableton.com/en/push-trade-in/
    Cool and Impressive.

    That was maybe a break point for me, I thought then hm... "Ableton".... let's look closer to it.
    And when searching for alternatives to Maschine I have naturally checked again on Ableton solutions.
     
  19. Rolland Sybi

    Rolland Sybi NI Product Owner

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    34
    Well yes ;). I do not say contrary ;) And that they should give us things for free ;) Sometimes they do haha!
    Apple knows how to make money. iPhones beyond $1000. I mean it's not the question of having that amount to spend each year. It just now insane the direction it takes.

    OK I do not want either to talk here Eco evangelism... We just know now that the model of the insane unnecessary consumerism will lead us head straight into the wall.
    Articles like this one by Forbes from 2017 are they just for making some sensation in the neighborhood?
    Humanity Has Officially Consumed More Than Earth Can Produce This Year


    IMHO Products can be designed differently.
    Euh yeah, I forgot, behind companies there are shareholders - they want profit ;) ....at all costs.

    When I started this thread I wanted to express that actually I am not so happy to see gear that is still viable go away just because.... there is no other argument than "new system" requires new gear
    Well I am closer to the Ableton approach than Native Instrument approach now. Having new system does not obligatory should put away older gear - that is only a "weak" pretext.

    I would still buy a new gear if there is a real creativity in it, something that is pushing me forward in my creation. I refuse more and more to obey marketers and shareholders. Ha ha revolution!!!!

    More seriously. The solution for my problem will be:
    I'll keep older system on HD partition or external HD until who dies first physically, Maschine MK1 or the hard drive.
    New Mac system will be Mojave (even Catalina is here for tomorrow)

    Then in 3 Mac OS system generation I'll come back with same frustrations about the chosen (today) solution Ha ha haaaaaa ;) :D:D:D:D:D;)

    ******************

    Guys can you share how you deal with the apps & gear?
    Are you always searching to be up to date with the newest system/gear or you squeeze your setups to the very last juice drop?

    Or yet something in between? :):):)
     
  20. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    6,687
    Although I absolutely hate to see viable electronic tools go to waste since it's harmful to the planet there are indeed cases where there's a reason for it, it's not always planned obsolescence like in the smartphone world.

    Major OS versions used to be more sparse and retro compatible, not anymore, I mean Apple has a major OS version each year now and most of them break software compatibility, having legacy support for many version is a hard task for devs, it's really a software issue that ends up affecting hardware that depends on computers. Apple reportedly is working on their own CPU's to stop relying on Intel, thats gonna be a major change just like from the PowerPC days to Intel.

    I am personally always on the latest or at the very least 1 version behind whenever possible, for gear, I generally sell the older model for the latest while the old still has a nice market value. For example, I sold my Maschine Studio for 450$ so for +150$ I got the Mk3, I feel like I end up saving money in the long run and avoid legacy issues. For laptops, I generally upgrade every 5 years or so and am always on the latest OS, usually I get half of the value of the new one by selling the old one.
    Some gear like Audio interfaces I only upgrade when I do loose support, pretty much once per decade.
     
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