Honestly, does Maschine really need Song Layer??

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Frankknuck, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

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    tbh I don't do beats based music so I would only use Maschine as a sort of hardware recorder integrated with my S Series keyboard (since compared to all DAWS, even the 'deep integration' ones, it is still the most integrated). The only things stopping me doing that right now are lack of open-ended record lengths and lack of aftertouch support. If those don't come though I'd be just as happy for Komplete Kontrol to get a record input option for the new sampler plugin (with unlimited record lengths of course, maybe direct to HD to avoid eating RAM)
     
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  2. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    909
    Nobody seemed to complain when Maschine got Ideas view. Now it's the default way that I use Maschine. I was thinking that the "song layer" would just be an expanded arrange view too, that would make sense!
     
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  3. Frankknuck

    Frankknuck NI Product Owner

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    The line I'm drawing is between features that build on existing Maschine concepts and features that introduce entirely new concepts into Maschine ("song layer"). You're a dev, so you may be more knowledgeable on this than me, from a programming standpoint, is there any difference between the two?

    From a user standpoint, the first approach def seems to maintain more continuity than the second. But even putting all that aside, it's been 3 years and they haven't been able to get it off the ground!!
     
  4. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    909
    It's really just playback of existing data ("patterns") at a different timecode. If it's part of the arrange view then it's a logical expansion of what already exists. If you could nudge or play patterns between 'scenes' that are in an arrangement just like you can record automation across multiple scenes by selecting your loop points on the arrangement view, then where's the difference? Hardly any. It's not really a devastatingly groundbreaking new feature, it's something that users assume would be in there given that it uses a desktop computer and isn't some little embedded system on a Eurorack module.
     
  5. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    I find your "line" vague and I completely don't understand why you're so convinced the supposed "Song Layer" has no continuity with the way we are used to working and previous concepts, the way you talk about it's like its a totally weird thing completely separate from everything we know about Maschine. There's no way something that would even be considered.
     
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  6. Frankknuck

    Frankknuck NI Product Owner

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    I can't tell if you're trolling me or not, but I'm not speaking in absolute, either/or terms. Perhaps I fell for a trick of HammyHavoc to draw a line at all, when in fact, it may not be necessary. It's not that song layer would have "no" continuity just because I'm suggesting that it may have less continuity. You and HammyHavoc jumped in to defend song layer or perhaps speak from more of a developers perspective, but neither one of you have addressed the point that there are apparently less disruptive ways to improve the sequencer (and the overall experience of using Maschine), which I and others have posted in this thread.

    EDIT: I guess you both disagree that it would be disruptive at all to introduce a new concept into Maschine to support sequencer improvements, in which case we can agree to disagree.
     
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  7. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    No... What I don't agree is that sequencer improvements = disrupting the current core concepts.
    There is zero evidence that it would be disruptive, you're just assuming that for some reason like it's a fact, again... I don't know why, perhaps you have privileged information we don't? Doubt it... but if you do spill it out :p

    If for some strange reason the ability to move/place a pattern in any position on the arranger linearly turns out to be disruptive then I am fine with that even though I don't think will ever happen or needs to happen. Simply because I think we would be able to simply not use it.

    We clearly see a familiar arranger with everything working as it does now but just with added functionality here:
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    1,695
    You kinda can record as you go along either by setting up a pattern long enough to accomodate however long you are likely to go on or choosing a pattern length to suit but setting your loop length long enough to accomodate how long you want to go for and Maschine will insert new numbered patterns on the fly.
    If you need to do it as audio you can do that via the tape recorder in Guitar rig (including the free Guitar Rig Player).
    I know none of these are optimal solutions but you can work round the limitations without having to resort to plugins unlike the disastrous Automation.
    Many of the muting and selection restrictions that are very hard to understand really need a revision but from what has been happening (or more pertinently not) it seems that in order to get many things more flexible and usable a complete rejigging of Maschine might be neccessary. Otherwise there's not really any easy to think of excuse for the lack of traction.
     
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  9. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    Yep... Imagine having Performance Recording with the current literal exclusive Mute/Solo system... It would be a great feature broken/limited by a core limitation.
     
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  10. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    1,695
    I have wondered since seeing this if it would actually work OK with Jam given the almost overlay looking nature of the clips. It would indeed be intensely ironic given the promises made prior Jam's release if the song layer couldn't be made to work with Jam and hence stalled development.
     
  11. dreddiknight

    dreddiknight NI Product Owner

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    1,270
    I found song layer overwrought.
    It was meant to solve both the limitations of patterns and lead to performance recording.
    I get what you're saying Frankknuck but would disagree, since it was ni that came up with the idea as the most elegant solution from their point of view.
    I'm not even sure they bit off more than they could chew; rather they left that idea due to marketers trying them to do other things instead.
    We didn't ask for song layer but when they went in that direction we followed, tried it and had some success with it, but for them to leave it for 2(?) years beggars belief. They've created their own hurdles and it is on them that I no longer even listen, or bother with betas. The whole beta program is an exercise in futility and lost opportunities...
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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  12. Nii-Teiko

    Nii-Teiko NI Product Owner

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    good thread ppl
     
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  13. ManoVarunKumar

    ManoVarunKumar New Member

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    Hey guys, just thinking out loud, so they can implement a repeat pattern toggle button which would allow the user to choose either to repeat the pattern in a particular scene or not repeat and along with that they can leverage the nudge button to offset the pattern from the scene. I guess that's all is needed from hardware integration point of view, of course I'm thinking from Maschine studio point of view since it has a dedicated nudge button, may be for other models they can implement nudge button using one of the macro buttons in the top.

    And nudging the pattern should lock on to the grid that is selected (which could be potential no grid too)

    Any thoughts?

    Sent from my SM-N9208 using Tapatalk
     
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  14. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

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    5,274
    Yup song mode could be turned on or off to keep loopy loopers happy.
     
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  15. ManoVarunKumar

    ManoVarunKumar New Member

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    Yep, that should give best of both worlds

    Sent from my SM-N9208 using Tapatalk
     
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  16. van Grieg

    van Grieg NI Product Owner

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    I really don't care about song mode that much. I mean, it would be nice to have but I know I also need tempo and signature changes to make arrangements, and that'll probably never come, so moving patterns to arbitrary places by itself isn't very useful for me personally.

    It would help a lot of people though even in the simplest form I guess.

    But if I got to pick missing features that wouldn't be number one for sure. Fixing the freaking hardware, making it work more consistently, CE support - if only that was implemented, I'd be a happy camper.
     
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  17. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    Well over 2 years is an awfully long time to not produce anything significant so what has been going on?????
     
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  18. loachm

    loachm NI Product Owner

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    ...I'm quite annoyed about the current state of the Audio Module, but I wouldn't call it insignificant.
     
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  19. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    According to the screenshot in post #25 it worked fine for Jam, read the description under "Arranger"
     
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  20. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    909
    I could imagine it working similarly to the note length feature in step editing on the Jam where you see white lights to indicate the length. There's a few different ways of implementing it based on the zoom/view/grid size view on the Jam.
     
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