Honestly, does Maschine really need Song Layer??

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Frankknuck, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    But how can the 'Future Of Sound' be antiquated :D
    Just wish NI realised that too.............................................
     
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  2. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    Oh ... by "easier to use" I thought you were literally talking about ease of use, not lack of implementing standard control protocols.
    I have no idea, lack of MCU and CE support is the dumbest thing ever IMO.
    I dont see why they would want to compete with the likes of Arturia, they focus on hardware no? While novation tends to focus on Live, not sure how their keyboards compare to NI's tho.

    Interesting POV.
    More important than the way we look at things is what is more likely to happen, no? Do you honestly believe NI will implement the most requested features for Maschine at this point? Thats a big "what if". The chances of one not needing any of those examples because maschine becomes what we asked is slim, to say the least... So I rather look at it realistically.

    This comes up a lot. I dont know why NI is so silent, I literally see zero advantage of hiding everything unless you have some sort of new technology no one else has.

    If you're in a small team with much lower profit it's normal you worry about communicating with your smaller audience.
    TBH I am not sure NI has a bigger dev team, dont forget they also have several products and markets to worry about as opposed to a single software for the whole office to focus on. Maybe a smaller but focused team is actually better than a huge office where everything is split.
     
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  3. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    Simply because its a market I believe they could do well in. They possibly make more revenue from controllers than software so why not play to their strengths

    No I don't think they will but yes I think they should or rather they should say ..look we have no desire to develop Maschine in ways people have asked for but we will try to make it easier for you to work in the DAW of your choice or look at how Studio One for instance are entering into their territory and may even take it over if they can't be competitive software wise to match the strength of their controllers.
    NI are really overstretched in what they do in one way and really lacking in development in most areas. I'd argue that unless something big is waiting hidden in the wings they are a lot more vunerable than they show any indication of realising.


    Quite..........................................or unless you don't want to admit you actually have nothing............................................

    I do realise that Reaper and MuTools don't have to answer to other than themselves and they only have the one product but they do have an appealing attitude and maybe they don't have to but choose to.
    NI choose not to.
     
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  4. van Grieg

    van Grieg NI Product Owner

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    Huh? I missed those ongoing updates, it seems. Where are they?
     
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  5. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

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    Things get shipped?
     
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  6. noisyvagabond

    noisyvagabond NI Product Owner

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    This! Honestly, after adjusting my head to it, I've actually come to a flow with Maschine that doesn't require a song layer. But I really hate working with the automation. It's fine if I'm editing with a controller but when I want to fine tune something and manually edit what a freaking headache. Just give us the option of linear line vs point to point and I'd be happy.
     
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  7. Frankknuck

    Frankknuck NI Product Owner

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    So I’m curious about how you combine reaper and Maschine. I also use this combination, but never felt 100% comfortable hosting Maschine inside of Reaper. I tend to work in Maschine standalone and then ReaRoute into reaper at a certain point if I decide I want to record vocals on something (I never really used MIDI sequencing in Reaper, never really gave it much of a chance honestly).

    Recently I’ve been thinking of trying to integrate them more closely as I’ve been writing songs lately as opposed to making beats. Curious to hear how others use these together.
     
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  8. wetdentist

    wetdentist NI Product Owner

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    for "finishing" a Maschine project:
    1) when i try to "finish" in Maschine alone, automations are not smooth, practically impossible to add vocal tracks & guitar tracks, no tempo changes, etc.
    2) when i try to open up a Maschine project in my DAW, my CPU maxes out pretty quickly because Maschine doesn't seem to be multi-core aware, and i have a 3.5Ghz six-core with 16 gigs of RAM & 3 internal hard drives, 7200 rpm.
    3) when i try to bounce all Maschine sounds in a project to audio, so that the tracks can be imported into my DAW, things like tempo changes in my DAW project are pretty difficult to account for

    i must be missing something
     
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  9. Uwe303

    Uwe303 NI Product Owner

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    to 1 - simply yes
    to 2 - as far as i know as plugin it is single core so you only could spread it over at least 2 instances
    to 3 - if you do that you have to use the bounce\render function of your daw then it should work as you expect it to

    Uwe
     
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  10. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    We route Maschine Groups 1 - 16 to channels within Reaper. We use Group 16 (you can only access 16 groups via Shift + Group button on hardware, right?) as an FX bus for Maschine itself, so figured stick it on the last one. That also allows you to play your effects interestingly. There are aux sends for Sounds and Groups going into Group 16 sounds. Everything from creative effects to staple reverbs (spring, plate, hall etc), and delays, including outboard gear. You can even send via an aux from one Sound to another if you need to delay a reverb for example, that's where the automation with Maschine can get interesting, even if the automation is really quite limited by modern standards.

    We put the FX Group channel within the FX bus setup in Reaper with all the outboard so you're not forced to run things through Maschine unless you want to and can find value in doing it, but I do personally find Maschine and KK to be a very important part of the workflow. There's also inputs/sends into Maschine's FX bus for hands-on control of FX that you're sending to it, even from Reaper.

    I have my wet-dry-wet guitar rig and re-amping system on a dedicated bus for easy fiddling, along with MIDI to any pedal that uses it like the Whammy. It's a lot of fun sending guitar to Blackhole in Maschine and manipulating it via the controls on the KKMK2 or Maschine MK3.

    Some elaboration on why Maschine/KK is so important within the workflow: NI's accessibility for the blind is pretty much unparalleled at this point. One of my colleagues is blind, this is why the lack of MCU on the KKMK2 is screwing the workflow for him in terms of muscle memory coming from the KKMK1 with functioning transport. But really, NI admittedly nail it for the most part with their accessibility features.

    I use MIDI to change Scenes on Maschine or loop the arranger view depending on what I'm working on. This means I can visualize the arrangement within Reaper without recording it out or dragging and dropping loops, plus it allows me to very quickly trial ideas at different points of a score if it's linear. The Ideas view of Maschine is great for dynamic music for games though. Region render matrix is also amazing for batch exports for games.

    Within the Reaper template, we also have a full orchestra in Kontakt VIs with articulations already setup etc. There are control voltage outputs for the Eurorack (sending clock and reset), and a separate MIDI to CV module for pitch and anything more fancy. Main reason we don't do clock over MIDI is because it compensates for the latency of the audio interface and syncs it as you would expect/hope without any of the BS of MIDI sync issues.

    Maschine can interface with both the guitar system, Eurorack and orchestral VIs if you choose to via the routing I've got going on. There's quite a bit more to it, there's Jam that can go between controlling Reaper and controlling Maschine; big fan of the touch faders for writing automation straight into Reaper because you don't have to ride them from point A to B, you can just tap and get there.

    The routing gets especially overwhelming once you get into game engine middleware, surround, room correction, headphone mixes, microphones, pedals and other instruments, far too complex for a forum post, it'd require a decent breakdown in blog form to really nail the "why?", the "how?", and the "what can you do with it?"! I've spent weeks of my life configuring it to work how we want/expect it to, the results have been well worth it, the speed that we can get things done is unlike anything else. This is why I'm a real stickler for details with NI; things absolutely have to be a certain way that we need them to be or they don't end up in the workflow. Efficiency is everything with it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  11. loachm

    loachm NI Product Owner

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    ...about using Maschine in a DAW and also about the automation of its parameters. I have had the best results and the easiest workflow, when I use serveral instance of Maschine in a DAW.

    There I use each instance as an instrument rack for a certain group of instuments, i.e. one for drums, one for percussion, strings, keys, bass, fx etc.

    I only send midi triggers from the DAW to Maschine to trigger a scene or a lock state. The actual midi is recorded into Maschine to avoid annoying midi routing (though one can set up a template), and I have become pretty comfortable with the hardware workflow, even though this has a learning curve. But it's a nice change from doing things with the mouse, I guess.

    Most of the time only one audio stream is going out to the DAW per Maschine instance, as I can get almost every submixing done inside of Maschine. But, of course, an elaborate setup and outboard gear can be a bit more tricky.

    For the automation you can enable a Maschine parameter for host automation and create the curves in the DAW. You can also record the movements of the hardware knobs as an automation curve in the DAW, once the parameter has been enabled in Maschine for host automation. So, it works both ways.

    It is also possible to record midi automation (something different than host automation) into Maschine by recording a Midi CC into Maschine and then assigning that CC to a Maschine parameter afterwards. It won't work any other way, though I haven't tested this in a long time and it could have changed (doubt it, though). I'm just mentioning this, if someone want to have some "proper" curves inside a Maschine project. What doesn't work is recording host automation from the DAW in Maschine.

    One thing, that drives me nuts, though, is the fact, that Maschine has only 128 host automation IDs, whereas Komplete Kontrol has 512. But Maschine is way more powerful, when it comes to layering and routing. :rolleyes:o_O I really hope, KK will reach the capabilities of Kore one day.

    In general, I think, it'll work best to use Maschine in a DAW, because Maschine itself is very limited and, indeed, flawed in serveral aspects. As compelling as the thought of doing everything inside of Maschine may be, my own practice has shown, that I'm constantly shooting myself in the foot, if I'd go that way. Most pieces of music require more than what it can do (or at least, you'd have to do a some annoying or complicated things to get there), and most DAWs are so powerful, that I doubt, that Maschine might get ever there. I doubt it, because, reaching that point might also mean, that it'll affect the hardware workflow (unless NI is maybe adding touch screens and add-on controllers). And then again, why compete with FL Studio and Live or any other DAW, when you can (hopefully) build hardware/software combos, that will work in Cubase, Logic, Studio One, Reaper etc. That might be a more promising equation.

    So I think, it might be a good idea to use Maschine's strengths (e.g. the hardware), where it is offering an advantage, and extend Maschine with your DAW, in areas where it falls short. However, everybody has different requirements and preferences, so it might not work for everybody. And none of this means, that Maschine is perfect or that NI is off the hook for certain things - it's just meant as a possible help to prevent getting mad and to get things done in the meantime.
     
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  12. BigPictureSound

    BigPictureSound NI Product Owner

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    Don't let other's influence how you work or the value of the tools you use. If I had read the forums I may not have purchased, and in the end I am glad I did. I agree that the tone of the forum needs improvement and that can only start from the top with the leadership. If you want tips and tricks, the Maschine reddit is a good place to go.
     
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  13. scheffkoch

    scheffkoch NI Product Owner

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    570
    "the tone of the forum needs improvement"

    ...sadly the tone reflects the improvement...
     
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  14. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    Dang... you made me sad, there are tips and tricks here toooooo :( usually quite a bit more accurate.
    I started posting there recently and it's cool, altho filled with "check my latest fire lit beat", not sure if there's a way to filter, I am reddit noob.
     
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  15. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    1,698
    I can't see the tone of the forum improving without a greatly needed change in attitude and communication from NI as it is that that is engendering the ill feeling.
     
  16. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    Here's a good one: https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/announcing-noire.354277/#post-1772847
    Just got told I made a 'fake post' by stating that I LIKED the latest Kontakt library from NI but would not be buying it until I see some kind of news on MCU implementation on KKMK2.
     
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  17. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    1,698
    I can see both sides of the 'argument' there but I think it's not the brightest thing to accuse you of a fake post. It doesn't help that one of NI's main communicators on the forum would appear to be in the dark as much as anyone. That really puts him in a very difficult position, insults both him and the forum members and does nothing other than rub salt in the unfortunate open wounds so prevelant here and elsewhere these days. Lose lose for everybody..........great way to run a company....................................
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  18. Frankknuck

    Frankknuck NI Product Owner

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    Wow, thank you for the detailed response! This and loachm post made this thread totally worth it for me. It's great to see detailed explanations the more specific ways people have adopted Maschine into a workflow. There are many little useful nuggets I took from you both, although in your case Hammy, I can see you have quite an advanced customization set up. Nice!

    The one thing I have not tried, but that I recently have considered because I just upgraded my CPU is to run multiple instances of Maschine as a plugin inside of Reaper. loachm's post drove the point home that this can be quite useful way to work for my purposes.

    Thanks guys, I'm inspired to try some new workflows with Maschine!
     
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  19. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    Whole situation is approaching damage control through public relations experts being needed, IMO.
    There's more great discussions like this over on VI-Control, the Reaper/Cockos forums, and very occasionally Gearslutz, though that's a lot less common these days. Highly recommend the Reaper/Cockos forums if you're not already a member.

    Our setup is something that grew from necessity primarily, it didn't spring up overnight, it's the culmination of about six months worth of planning, building, buying, selling, modifying, programming, a lot of sleepless nights, and plenty of issues we didn't foresee that all needed workarounds. Nothing ever goes smoothly. ;- ) You'll probably find over time that you develop your own Reaper template and workflow as you find what works and doesn't work for you creatively, and in terms of speed and general requirements. I used to see all these massive templates and get a little freaked out by it, but it can make a lot of sense over time if you find yourself doing something every time you're in the studio, and it gives you your go-to techniques and sounds off the bat with minimal fuss. It's then more about the ideas and less about the technical side of things, which has been great for productive output.

    Multiple instances can work really well; I regularly swap between KK and Maschine instances via the KK controller. In fact, that's not a bad way of doing transitional stuff between scenes/patterns on the DAW's timeline whilst still taking advantage of the hardware control of KK if you just want to throw something into the DAW's timeline quickly without worrying about patterns/scenes in Maschine.
     
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  20. loachm

    loachm NI Product Owner

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    @Frankknuck - glad, the info might be helpful to you. Attached you'll find a Live project to showcase the concept. I did this a couple of years ago using a Maschine factory project - everybody with Live Lite or a Live demo version can have a look and the concept can be adapted for other DAWs.

    Just a few remarks about it: in this demo blank patterns are used for silent parts, but the same effect could be achieved by switching off the plug-in instance via the DAW. It is a pretty easy and straigth-forward arrangement, but you can also build quite complex ones using this method - everything while maintaining Maschine's hardware workflow and without a lot of midi & audio routing hassle. It also allows you to have automation curves and the flexibility to freeze certain instances.

    The only thing, that could be annoying and requires to paying attention to is, that the DAW's midi part/clip MUST NOT be shorter than the Maschine scene it is triggering. If this is the case, Maschine might jump to a wrong position in the scene, that is triggered afterwards. So, for instance, if your two trigger parts in the DAW have a length of two bars, but your Maschine scenes have a length of four, Maschine will jump to bar three in the second scene.

    If there are further question, feel free to ask, however, the link to the original thread with a lot of explainations can be found in the Tips & Tricks sticky.

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