How is this even possible?

I beatgrid all my tracks to match up perfectly with 1 master track , therefore they should all match to each other as they have been gridded to the same source. I test tracks against each other also to double check. So everything sync's when phase meter at 0 or if you press sync. I do this internally playing through internalsoundcard so i can isten through headphones to as accurate as possible.
Finally got my decks set up again and when playing externally with or without TC control some tracks are noticeably off beat when sync is pressed or phase meter at 0. This is running through audio8 with latencey at 5.5 or 7. Surely latencey cant have anything to do with it as it affects all sound? I can beatmatch them manually without looking at phase meter or pitch bend but its not the point , they should match up. Anyone know whats going on here?

Another problem thats cropped up is when mixing 2 tracks it randomly switches which track is the Master without me doing anything (Im coming from T3 and never had this happen). Not when ive stoppped a deck or anything just randomly in the middle of a mix

 

My master switches back and forth like yours. I use two time-code Cd's. This doesn't always happen but when it does, i notice its only when the songs are in near perfect sync and i nudge the platter on my CD deck to stay in time. its at that moment i see the master flickering back and forth and then sometimes coming to rest on the wrong deck in TSP. I set a midi button on my mpd32 to switch the deck master back so i can re-sync if needed.

Sorry no help... just more case study.

 

you should not use AUTO as master mode, choose MANual instead with timecode. metronome button. upper left.

 

ah ok thanks will try , this auto mode is weird viva la T3!

 

Also worth checking your key levels on each deck are set to zero!

 

ok thanks , the syncing thing is still a mystery tho

 

i think we all have some tracks that are really hard to beatgrid properly,
so that they exactly match with all the rest.

imagine someone fiddeling around with his beat quite a bit. putting the kick and the snare a bit before and/or after the "hit", to create some tension,
have lots of syncopated percussion running, delaying the hi-hat beat,
play with shuffle, ect... ect..

you think, you are right on the "one" but the beat as a whole still misses.
and it happens quite some times, nowdays with all the DAW`s endless possibilities to drag single hits around as you like, zoomed in to sample level ,
using delay for just a tick ... ... and all you can imagine.

or some bass-drums that have slow attack, can make you fool quite a bit.

not to mention the bassline, that may comes into you way while gridding.
it`s not always just a matter of having a reasonable bpm-value and check if the grid sits on the kick.
and, it sometimes can get very frustrating !

so, best advice is to listen to a loop as a whole,
sometimes just 1 or 2 bars, sometimes 4 or even 8. it sounds different - make a test and you`ll be surprised how you can fail with a 2 bar loop just right, listening to the whole track.

on such tricky tracks, i tend to use the filters too - sometimes it`s helpful to reduce frequencies in the low end to hear the "groove" - and decide where it all starts to make sense.

because one thing is sure, may the single-hits be way off, there`s only one spot where the whole beat syncs up .
that`s the spot we`re after.

so, i have a dedicated playlist for tracks that i think need to be reviewed further, when i have one that does not quite seem to fit with all the rest of the mix.
(even more disturbing when using 4 decks).
i just copy them there and load up another one.
at home, i check the track once more.

i remember having some tracks, where i found myself fiddeling half an hour to get the grid right.
in that case i tend to give it up and try again the next day,
and mostly it will be a matter of no time, using a fresh pair of ears and a rested brain.

and, as i`m at it:
i mostly find myself doing the same thing with every track that i beatgrid,
i search for a good beat at the beginning of the song,
where not too much comes in the way -
just the kick and snare, some hh`s (important),
the bass and maybe some percussive synth or such .
then, make a loop (usually 4 bars - but can differ)

then, as i have the experience that calculation is always a bit "behind",
i tend to tick the backwards-button several times (5-7)
until i hear that i`m slightly off.
then, i start to put it back to the "sweet spot".
if that doesn`t help, i go the other way, tick untill i hear that it`s too late,
and come from the other way around.
you can almost feel it, when you are at the right spot,
means, without really listening (or looking) at single beats

cheers

 

wow big reply cheers!
Its not a case of the beats being placed slightly off in production. I spend time aligning my beatgrids as you described , pushing it one way then the other to get the sweet spot , using the same reference track every time.when i did it in the headphones it all sounded fine. now with the audio8 the very same tracks sound off when synced and have to be pulled back abit with pitch bend to sit right. will do some more tests tonight to see if it happens again

 

When you hit sync with your decks, the track only 'momentarily' syncs to master. As the wow-and-flutter of your decks are probably +-0.05 bpm, this means they'll start to drift again as they will then follow the timecode. It should be any harder to beatmix than normal vinyl though.

 

this is when playing internally as well not using tc control. my decks bpm does fluctuate alot as they really old but i'm used to it

 

why do you have to beatgrid ur tracks to a "master track"

why not just turn on the metronome for the grid?

 

because when im beatgridding im only using the internal soundcard as im not normaly in the studio and it doesnt have a separate headphone output to hear the tick

 

Then simply map the internal soundcard's outputs to monitor, not master.

 

Map your single output to the monitor instead of main. Then you can hear the tick. Then when you want to try a mix just wind your monitor mix knob all the way to master. That's what I do.
---

Sometimes the "tick" just doesn't quite nail it. It is always good to check your track will mix into a "Reference" or "Master" track to be doubly sure you have it spot on.

 

Ah thanks for that been wondering how to get the tick for a while now!
This has now shown me that my reference track that Ive beatgridded everything to is slightly off the tick , doh! I guess it doesnt matter as long as I keep everything gridded to it still but If I change one I have to change them all

 

lol that's what i mean

u know what would be good? if we can zoom in more in traktor - this way we dont even need the metronome to put an ultra-precise beatgrid , at the moment the zoom is just not detailed yet

 

this was what scared me to go for a "reference" track.

i also did think about using a kickdrum-loop, instead of the metronome.
but, once you get used to the metronome, i think it`s still the best thing to do.

it reminds me of the days when we were sitting in the studio, trying to match the "klick" of the mpc to a drum-machine`s or such.
the clicking went all the way, and at some point you just weren`t able to hear it anymore, no matter what you`d decide, it was way off.

after going for a walk, it all went back to normal.

that told me that ears can get tyred. and i try not to beatgrid any more tracks, when that happens to me now.

 

OK just recorded a mix and problem is still there. Tracks that sync perfectly together when listening on headphones/internal soundcard now need to be pitch bended off abit to sync when going through audio8. The exact same tracks sound fine together with 0 phase meter sync through headphones/internal soundcard but through audio8 need to be nudged back or forward. Regardless of tick , these have all been gridded the same way so its irrelivant.very weird and inconsistant too , some tracks fine , some not

 

If you can reliably reproduce this I think NI support would be very interested in this behavior.

 

i'm gridding my tracks visually, without the tick - has been always reliable to me.

you need to make sure that the grid fits over the whole length of the track, not only in the beginning or the end!