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I'm sorry but traktor does not make you a DJ

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR 3' started by wild_andy_c, Aug 9, 2008.

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  1. DiscoPoelie

    DiscoPoelie NI Product Owner

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    396
    Exactly! I want to geek out in playing rediscovered classics, be original in the records I choose. And not spending time to perfect MIDI set-ups. I just want to enjoy a digital record collection...

    But this boat is often missed by some people, especially the traktor dev team... You understand my POV, you understand mine, so why does NI only understand your POV? In fact, they are the geeky-est ones: they only see the benefit of markers, preset loops and beatgrids, but they don't see the downside (that downside is that you have to spend more time at home to get things working at the gig...)
     
  2. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

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    3,097
    I think it's all in how you look at your DJ style as a whole.

    Traktor is just tool to allow you to enhance your style, or to discover a new one.

    Traktor does not do 100% of what you want it to do. Neither does any other DVS. All you can do is see what features fit your style the best, and use them to your advantage.
     
  3. StevenJames

    StevenJames Forum Member

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    149
    Well just to give a little conclusion, this thread has been really really interesting with different peoples views and opinions.
    I personally dont mind the geek side of things if it can be done creatively.. eg. using ableton live for a full set already warped up tracks split into verses, choruses phrases, basslines, riffs and drum tracks etc to produce basically one live performance (which technically i wouldnt call DJing its more sequencing).

    So to me (dont know if anyone else agrees) beatgridding your track all night is same principle of abletons warping but for Traktor users its simply to get rid of the beatmatching problem so you can work on other ideas (altho as Andy points out u still need to adjust every now and again using your ear). But the problem with traktor is - you cant do a full sequencing performance with it.

    So here comes my problem, id love to do a full 'sequence' set and get all creative, but im too lazy to collect all the loops, samples and tracks and chop them up, label them, structure them and organise them to create a 'set' in say ableton. As for beatgridding in traktor..the same applies..theres no way i can be bothered with all that, id rather know my tunes, know how to mix properly, and know how to knock up a set on the fly instead of pre planning it.

    So i personally think beatgridding in traktor is pointless unless it operated the same as Ableton does. Maybe im wrong, i will speak to the NI rep next time hes in my store to get a proper demo. My idea would be make Traktor 4 like ableton if they want to geek it up more, but brand Traktor Scratch for the more traditional DJ's just wanting to mix normally (including traktor 3's features of course so no external timecode is needed).
     
  4. trance alba

    trance alba Forum Member

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    612
    ---
    is there anything stopping you?


    Not true; you dont HAVE to spend time preparing at home, surely you can do whatever you wish because that feature is there to those that WISH to use it, no one's forcing you to.

    You can do as little or as much with traktor as you want, thats the real beauty of it.
     
  5. The Syndrome

    The Syndrome NI Product Owner

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    267
    Imo, if you enjoy what you do, get repeat gigs, and keep people dancing it does not matter how you do it.

    If you are a profesional/semi-professional DJ you shoud be on the mailing lists and thus have tunes posted to you or you spend your Sundays (or whateverday) searching for tunes.

    At the end of the day if you are choosing what you want to play and how you want to play it and/or if you want to prep it prior to playing, does that make you a geek?

    So really what you are saying Poelie is that all DJs are geeks!
     
  6. John Alexander

    John Alexander Forum Member

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    243
    I am searching for tunes 24/7. The search never ends.

    Beatgridding only takes 15 seconds/track.

    I've learned to beatmatch after a few years of riding sync...

    I get no gigs.

    I play excellent music that ends up as a CD for my car rides or for friends.

    A DJ? Me?

    I dunno...

    I play tunes and it makes me feel good.

    If I do have an audience, I tend to cater to them, and they usually have a great time.

    ....


    blah blah...

    I think a lot of noobs could help themselves with more research, but hey, we all gotta start somewhere...
    Sometimes some need a good slap, physical or verbal to get it right.
     
  7. The Syndrome

    The Syndrome NI Product Owner

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    267
    Respect! That is what it is all about. Try to get a gig, the first one is always scary but hey, what a buzz!

    email me and I will try give you a url or two depending on what tunes you are into and where you are.

    I agree, unless you have a difficult track to grid (Pjanoo), it takes 15 secs, you have to listen to the tune anyway!
     
  8. DiscoPoelie

    DiscoPoelie NI Product Owner

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    396
    Well, then start playing some disco-tracks or even things like 'the white stripes', and then talk to me again. Your reaction is exactly the one I'm pointing at. Most traktor users think that all tracks have a steady BPM. Ok, manual loop then... But then I discover (especially when coming from a Denon background) that the manual loop is just quickly programmed to say 'stop wining, we have manual loop', but that is not tought through toroughly, and therefore pretty useless when you do not want to mess up things...

    I do understand that it is just my point of view. And that my desires should not endanger the advanced function traktor has (ie: I respect what you guys do with autoloop). But the only thing I expect in return is that you believe me when I say that the current manual loop is not sufficient.

    But instead of acknowledging that I have a different way of doing things, and therefore different needs, you just jump on me, and say 'no thats not true!'... So actually, you have just proven the point I made in my previous post ;)
     
  9. trance alba

    trance alba Forum Member

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    612
    It all makes sense now!

    It appeared you were just moaning about something you thought you HAD to do in traktor, when in actual fact you want something that is pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to do without a shyte load of prior prep, ie make loops quickly out of music that doesnt follow as strict a rhythm as sequenced dance music does.

    The only program i know of that can do that on the fly is ableton, but ableton is more of a live sequencer than a DJ tool, although it can be used for DJing, personally i wouldn't dream of making loops out of rock or other non electronic genres, where's the point? if you're lucky, your loop will be short enough so that the bpm wont waiver too much, but it's doubtful that even if the track loops in time with another track your mixing it to, that the beats/events within the loop will be in time with it.

    Mixing such genres of music is probably best done the old fashioned way, by crossfading the last few seconds of one with the first of another. Thats why they tend to all be radio length tracks (3-4 minutes) where as a typical dance music track has lengthy intros and outros to mix in and out of.
     
  10. wild_andy_c

    wild_andy_c Forum Member

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    228
    ARR EEE ESS PEE EEE SEE TEE - RESPECT
     
  11. DiscoPoelie

    DiscoPoelie NI Product Owner

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    396
    Indeed your loop has to be short enough. But when it is, you can do magnificent things with it! I am an allround DJ, but one that beatmixes allmost everything. Even bryan adams or bon jovi!

    Anyway, I have said enough about the limitations in traktor for my kind of DJs. If the NI dev team doesn't get the message now they never will...
     
  12. trance alba

    trance alba Forum Member

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    612
    actually i lied a little; using my itunes collection in traktor i DO have loops at the start and end of blur-song 2, the killers - when we were young, a kooks track and even a song by pink!
    prob a few others too if i actually looked... ;)

    My point was you can never guarantee loops will work if the tune doesnt have a constant tempo, it would prob take some major overhauling of the sound engine in traktor to do what ableton does, (real-time timestretching, different between every beat/hitpoint) which aint so good for those that already push there processors enough to have keylock and FX without sound drop-outs/glitches.

    Like I've said before tho, might be nice to have certain abilities but not be forced to use them, guess this WOULD be a nice one for folk such as yourself.
     
  13. de wouzer

    de wouzer NI Product Owner

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    1,661
    i like traktor because with traktor dj's isn't that bad for my ears. I hate beatmatching in clubs.

    to me djing with traktor is very difficult, because of the big amount of possibilities.

    I have a lot of experience with technics and vinyl... and I am active with traktor for more than one year.... since 1 month i think it is possible for me to make real good things with traktor.
     
  14. DiscoPoelie

    DiscoPoelie NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    396
    I'm not asking for ableton-like timestretching. I used to do these tricks on the fly with a CD player, so why should I need Ableton.

    Nevermind anyway....
     
  15. whiskers

    whiskers New Member

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    13
    I was listening to some northern soul classics on youtube... and, man, back in the day, when all djs had was a bunch of 3-minute-long 7" singles and two decks - no mixer, no pitch control - was it hard work. sure, no beatmatching (per-say, they still tried to do it manually or by ear by selecting similar records), but it's quite a different story today what with the CDJs' loops, insta-start, waveforms, bpms, pitch bends, etc.

    point being... it was always about pleasing the crowd and it was always about the music.
     
  16. wild_andy_c

    wild_andy_c Forum Member

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    228
    Here's a point - there was a UK Midlands scotter Rally the other week at which a friend of mine was DJing Northern Soul & Ska - he turned up with a Numark Total Control, DJIO & Vaio only to originally be told by the knob with the PA that if he had no CD's or Vinyl he weren't DJing.

    A bit of arguing later he got to DJ, rocked the crowd very nicely but still this poor elitist attitude over reigned.

    The so called elite vinylists ended up making things modern toward the early hours with a very unimaginitive Born Slippy - whilst my mucka had a full armada of about 40gig of tunes from a diversity from 1956 to 2008 lingering on his HDD.

    So I see another argument raised here - the almost nazi untalented vinyl record collectors (not really DJ's based upon their ***** performances and jagged selections) opposing those digital DJ's just because they feel threatened by them.


    http://www.runtothescrum.com/photo/albums/John/normal_IMG_9964.jpg
     
  17. scrambled_egg81

    scrambled_egg81 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    527
    I love the odd troll on ye ol' beloved NI forums.

    Andy C-let me ask you this one thing (if you're honestly reading your own tripe):

    Do you honestly think that a crowd could really care less about what a DJ uses as opposed to how and what he plays? A laptop does not make a DJ, I'll agree with that, but a set of tables and a mixer does not make a DJ either no matter how hard your supposed 17 years of experience may tell you it does. What makes a DJ is their following and their ability to play good music. End of.

    Now kindly pish off to the GU forums and whine to them there. You'll get a thoroughly warm greeting.
     
  18. wild_andy_c

    wild_andy_c Forum Member

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    228
    It was the subject of Northern Soul DJ's that I read of that ignited my hatred of the situation my good friend was put in the other week - i'm not trying to alienate myself here just state that there's a breed of some people who collect rare records that just feel threatened by the digital generation.

    I don't need your offensive tone, I was just making a further diversion of what had been in the end an excellent debate topic. Some people may concur with my sentiment - obviously you just wish to abuse me.
     
  19. iamscoby

    iamscoby NI Product Owner

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    200
    This entire thread has been done, over and over again - albeit this time the uber comedy of TeLLy made it much more worthwhile to read. Though, I have to wonder TeLLY, this isn't the first time your food fetish has ebbed onto this forum... Just admit it, your dying to DJ a Weight Watchers meeting.

    As to the whole 'DJ / not a DJ' crap... And someone made the point already, who the hell cares? The only thing that matters is that the air con in whatever venue your in doesn't blow the body odour of hundreds of people in your face. Oh, and that your having fun.

    When is a DJ a DJ? Make soimeone feel good with the sound of tunes... whether your dropping a tone arm, pressing play, sync'ing or beat matching..... and maybe even if you are using toast. Though to be fair, if you butter it on both sides, your most certainly not a DJ. That's much more a live performance type thing...
     
  20. RufusWhite

    RufusWhite NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    457
    The whole "Northern Souler's do it with vinyl" thing is what turned me on to House music in an indirect way lol :)

    I have a lot of Northern Soul, and when trying to get gigs at a couple of clubs I was told outright that if I didn't play vinyl, I wasn't DJing at their club, simple as. Having said that, Northern Soul has *always* been about vinyl, so I can kinda let them off in this instance. I think it's one of the few genres left that people in the crowd actually *do* care whether the DJ is using vinyl.

    I've DJ'd on Vinyl, CDs and computers (I was one of the first people to program a crossfader for winamp back before the days of Traktor), and my opinion of the matter is pretty simple: use whatever you want to rock the crowd - it's the tunes, not what you use to play them that counts. I still get guys coming up to me trying to tell me that vinyl is best. Now, I don't even feed the troll. If they don't like my DJing because I'm not using vinyl, they can get off my dancefloor for all I care. If they don't like my DJing because of the tracks I play, *that's* when it becomes *my* problem.

    You have to be a geek to be a good DJ - if that geekiness manifests itself as seeking out amazing tunes that no-one else has, or extends to warping in Ableton, and setting all your loops and cues though, is as someone else pointed out, entirely up to you. Yeah, of course you could play the same tunes without all that extra work, but if you make use of those extra features in Traktor to good effect, and it adds to the music, rather than takes away from it, more power to you. Personally, I'm at the point where I'm trying to achieve a balance in my sets between adding a little something extra (effects, maybe a little off-the-cuff remixing), and giving the original track the respect it deserves. A good track should make people want to dance without adding anything to it, that's what it was made for. If you can use the tools at your disposal to heighten the crowd's enjoyment of that track, without confusing them or butchering the original track, you're on to something. But I'm noticing a lot of DJs these days that, whilst they may have excellent track selection, they f*** about with the track too much, to the point where it becomes unrecognizable in a lot of cases, and at the end of the day, it's only going to alienate your dancefloor. Just because you can do all this amazing stuff in Traktor doesn't mean you have to.

    As has been stated before here - you can teach a monkey how to beatmatch, but can you teach a monkey how to pick a good track?

    Rufus
     
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