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iMaschine - Android Equivalent?

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by dj_dunno, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. noiserot

    noiserot Forum Member

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    1,864
    http://www.androidannoyances.com/post/tag/low-latency-audio
     
  2. lowrizzle

    lowrizzle Forum Member

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    Dude...try tapping out a beat nicely in 70ms or more lag. It's not feasible. This is why (I love my Nexus 7) android SUCKS for music production. We're not just ignored, we're not even a consideration.

    Try playing the keyboard effectively in Caustic or any live audio apps in android if you think it's feasible to sketch out a beat nicely..that is unless all you do is step sequencing. That's not even what iMaschine is about.
     
  3. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    just iam on Android ...lol ...anyways


    There are many good reasons why NI would not want to develope iMaschine for Android

    Android at the moment... SUCK's ..big time ! ....that's why other forces are going to help out

    iOS runs only on Apple devices ....Android runs on all other devices & that is a huge problem for developers ....because of the large diversity of devices ...each device performs differently ...since they have different hardware & software

    developers would need to run & test a high quality app like iMaschine on most devices & that alone would take forever .....Apple iOS is just more stable ....that's it ..that's all !

    iMaschine could & probably would perform amazing on a Quad Core Galaxy S3 ....but not so well on other devices ....there are just too many bugs in Android spanning the diversity of devices

    I personally own a Galaxy S3 & Galaxy S2 & I am sure iMaschine would run ..killah ! ..on these devices ....but the system core just isn't there yet

    Beats Audio seemed like it was going to integrated in many Android devices....but there are developers that are developing better Audio Mods than Beats Audio....ACID Audio for ex

    But don't get too discouraged ! .....Android in the near future is going to get very powerful

    There are developers creating Kernels & Mods that should be able too smooth things out & Ubuntu is going to be running natively on top of Android & will be able to run a high quality app like iMaschine ...no prob

    Ubuntu For Android .....is the hope !
     
  4. mezzurias

    mezzurias NI Product Owner

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    2,404
    Don't want turn this into an Android bashfest but isn't that what we always hear from Android fans? "Wait until the next version it will fix EVERYTHING". The problem with Android and audio has very little to do with how fast the device is. iMaschine and many other audio apps run well on the relatively meager specs that iOS devices run on. It's dalvik that's the issue and unfortunately its necessary because no developer in their right mind is going to develop a binary compatible app to run on 100 devices that have different specs and different processors, heck even different versions of the OS.

    I'm sorry but Ubuntu running on an Android device is not the solution especially for anyone who doesn't want to tinker with their devices. On iOS they just have to download an app, not root their device and install a whole new OS. Its just not realistic to expect NI or people to support something like that. Until Google gets serious about Audio and even more so gets serious about OEMs actually updating the OS in a timely manner I don't see it happening anytime soon. iOS is where its at at the moment. One possible contender could be Windows Phone 8, but WDDM was never all that great on Windows (most developers use ASIO) so I'm not sure.
     
  5. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    I understand what your saying my friend .....but Ubuntu is going to run natively on Android ...in other words shipped with Android devices ...no need for rooting ..or modifying your device ....it is fully intergrated between both platforms ....they are both Linux based

    That has nothing to do with it .....I am a developer & I know what I am talking about !

    Android is just going in too many directions at the moment developing for many devices
    ......& it's only in NI interest to develope for Apple at the moment

    Yes I was actually just editing ...before I read the post

    I forgot to mention ....that yes ...
    we will probably see a Windows Phone iMaschine .... before Android
    ---
    The possibilities are ..if you don't quite understand

    ....you could be jamming out some beats on your device ....then you dock your device & continue running iMaschine as a desktop app on your laptop or PC .....seamlessly through Ubuntu ....that's what Ubuntu for Android is ......& iOS & Windows will never be !
    ---
    For those who dont know what Ubuntu For Android is

    The whole Ubuntu concept is based on integration & docking
    A device runs both platforms seamlessly & when you dock your device you continue running your app seemlessly on your PC or Notebook .....the connectivity of other devices & hardware is endless through Ubuntu

    Scenario : your jamming beats on your device & you want to spice it up ...with effects from your Production DAW... Cubase 6 in my case or NI Hardware / software :p ..... or Record On Fly ....then seamlessly...live on the fly ... go back to your device app after.....you have edited & take off with your device & mix .... continuing on with the device app is amazing !
     
  6. fortyfive

    fortyfive Forum Member

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    Isn't it fascinating that open source has produced LESS effective tools than the corporations like Apple and Microsoft? Free software in fact means worthless software. I gave linux every hope 15 years ago, but history shows it just isn't going to destroy the established OSs. Sorry dreamers, the phone manufacturers providing Android screwed you and not 'the man'.

    Harsh but fair,
    B
     
  7. mezzurias

    mezzurias NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,404
    As cool as that may sound on paper, it defeats the whole purpose of a phone imo. Besides there was already a phone released that had everything you mentioned and that failed miserably (Motorola Atrix). Sorry but people don't want need their phones to dock and run as a full OS. I won't even mention that Linux itself has mediocre support for music applications and hardware. Hell, it has mediocre support for most things and I say that as a former Ubuntu user who used nothing but Ubuntu for 4 years until I decided that I had enough with half finished software, buggy implementations and lack of software I care about without resorting to hacks.

    I respect OSS, there can be great pieces of software that comes out of it, but some developers use OSS as an excuse for a crappy product. Putting that on an Android phone isn't going to fix that. I mean Android itself suffers from the same thing.
     
  8. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    I don't agree my friend ...let's not get off topic now & turn this into an OS battle .... & i dont really get what your point is ....so just because Linux doesnt get mass corporate funding millions ...billions of dollars for development ...over the years ....& it didn't become the OS that everyone ...well "old school" ...hoped it would be ....

    because there are alot of cheap ass people out there ...that were afraid to embrase Open Source Development but jump to the opportunity to use for free & then bitch about it ... & don't realize ...its developed by dedicated programmers ....getting paid nothing .....show some respect man !

    & where Linux was & where it is now & where its going in the future ...threw all of this ...marketing corporate mobile rat race s$%t going on ....it deserves some respect .....Linux developers need to feed there families also ......don't forget Apple has... ohhh 25 - 30 years development of an actual OS ...not DOS ....so iOS is based from MAC OS .....& Google has 4 years with Android Linux ! ....really !

    I don't really care if Google decided to choose Linux base instead of going with an other language ....well that's all we got at the moment buddy ....what can I say !


    Android is Linux based & it seems it will always be ....so then since the next OS for Linux base is Ubuntu ...& an actual full OS has not been put on a mobile device yet .....what can I say ! ...wake up !
    .. lets not take shots at any companies ....& turn this into an OS battle & stick to reality

    If Google feels that Ubuntu is a good direction for Android devices ...Samsung & other similar companies agree .......because they don't really have any other choice do they ....then it is welcome .....there's nothing else at the moment .....& it seems it is has support from the unlucky millions of people i guess ... that purchase Linux based devices ...

    pffff please Atrix ! ...are you serious ! ....the concept of Atrix wasn't anything close to an actual PC OS ...& do not get yourself confused ....Ubuntu does not take away any functionality of the phone at all if that's the primary device ....Android handles the device functions ....the dock is something that you need ....maybe the integration with PC & other devices .... could be done with direct USB ....but a dock is more functional ......so blame it on the dock now !

    & reality is all these devices are not phones anymore ....these are mini computers we are holding in our hands...

    so let me understand !......if you had to pick between operating system for a mobile device...in the name speaking Google "android" .....so Android or Ubuntu ...to run high quality apps ....what would it be ? ...my opion would be Ubuntu !

    I don't mean to bust your balls man ...really ! ...but like I said earlier Android is Linux based & will always be & Ubuntu has way more potential than ...what you were trying to call a concept....Atrix....Motorola the first mobile company ! & what did they do over 22- 25 years 30 if you count old school pagers.....0 ! ...

    Anyways the point is Ubuntu with Android is going to eventually evolve & Linux device users are going to have to live with it ....until something else


    So back on topic now ...if NI would want to develope an app for a Linux based mobile device ...then building a version of iMaschine would be best on Ubuntu .....since the Linux core is aleady native. that's my opinion
     
  9. robbieds

    robbieds NI Product Owner

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    491
    Android has latencyproblems like windows, so thats why there is no good music apps, I saw the spc one, good for a tablet not a phone.

    Apple kills it with core audio
     
  10. flux302

    flux302 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    3,050
    THIS!


    I didn't read the whole thread but just wanted to comment. at the current time... even with jelly bean android still has a large latency compared to iOS which is why you don't see these products really working. try supremeMPA it is decent but suffers the same fate of latency on android. till that is fixed (from what I understand it's due to the VERY VERY core of the coding level) so doubtful to be fully fixed for a while.
     
  11. noiserot

    noiserot Forum Member

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    1,864
    Yeah, Android is still not capable of realtime low-latency audio. What is interesting about the Ubuntu for Android development that was mentioned is that there is a low latency kernel for Linux which Ubuntu Studio makes use of. But integrating that kernel into Android might not even be technically possible. And from what I hear, it's the sound device drivers as much as anything in the kernel that's the issue anyway.

    The bottomline is that not only does Apple benefit from iOS being essentially a mobile version of OSX with the same CoreAudio and CoreMIDI that is already well established and very stable, they also have an easier time thanks to the homogeneous hardware and the advantage of being both the hardware and software makers and thus saving developers lots of time because there's no hardware fragmentation like Android devices which is a nightmare for Android devs.
     
  12. lowrizzle

    lowrizzle Forum Member

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    Nothing would scream "SHARDED MARKET" worse than an app only available for Ubuntu for Android. There just wouldn't be a market.

    It's really funny how the most excitable people (re: Re-Beat) on here about this subject are obviously the least informed about the limitations and issues surrounding this. As a sore Nexus 7 owner, I really wish this forum would just ban the word Android.
     
  13. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    Lowrizzle: i have been developing on Linux ..Javascript & Action Script ..for almost 15 years now my friend & I am currently a custom kernel developer on Android ...I know my s$%t ;)

    It seems you my friend dont quite understand what iam talking about or you just have a really closed mind man .....All I am saying is & obviously I am not the only person that thinks this way ...

    since these devices can run actual PC OS now & future ...soon there will be no need for a remix ...of a PC OS ..Android ....Android can sit there & handle only phone functions ......the only problem is you dont have full touch support ..

    Windows is able to pull it off .....but what did they do.. the idiots ....released Surface ....which is a pseudo Atrix ..Ubuntu ...concept ....wow unbelievable !

    So Ubuntu concept is pretty much stuck on a dock ....that's it ..that's all
    ...you can operate Ubuntu with your finger it just works as a mouse & pointer....no full Touch UI ...& again the big problem with Linux kernel ....limited app support !

    The fact is Apple kernel is 100 times more powerful than Linux

    Currently you can install a ported version of Ubuntu & it works great ..not the best but great ...I have it installed on my S3 & Nexus 7 .......ported versions are abit risky though & could screw up your device ..fry the GPU & maybe CPU ....if you don't know how to configure overclocking properly & you need to root the device

    Anyways the point to everything is Android kernels ....Linux kernels ...have got to get more powerful if they stand any chance of keeping up with Apple & Windows & I think most will agree on that & as many have said ..the Audio has got to improve & it looks like Dr Dre is a mobile sound expert now ...let's see what he can do !
    -
     
  14. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    ......exactly ..i agree very much with you ......Kernels & Drivers are what Androids main prob is ....you can look at it this way .......there aren't very many sound production apps on Linux....& If Traktor for ex was also Linux compatible .....then you could create Traktor for Android very easy ...

    latency & midi support has nothing to do with it .....Linux latency ..midi & buffering is now pretty good ........Android devices support midi just fine

    PocketBand Studio which is the best Android Sampler / Sequencer app ....have done some amazing work ....i have created some pretty awesome tracks with PocketBand.....if I only could be worthy of contributing to the PocketBand team :eek:

    So it is possible for iMaschine Android to be created very easy & actually I wouldn't be to surprised if NI is already working on it .....maybe they should collaborate with PocketBand & create alot of interesting apps ......but I know for sure that PocketBand Studio has taken thousands of hours to create

    But at current its a kernel & driver issue & maybe not possible till Android 5.0 ....core drivers should be totally bug free by then....we hope !
    ---
    it already is my friend.....Android firmware is created on Ubuntu kernel to be totally specific ....that's why Ubuntu OS runs so nice on Android devices
    ---
    Most users in this forum are probably not developers ...so I dont expect most of you to fully understand the issues of creating sound production apps / sequencers on Linux....they are just alot more tedious than iOS & I am not a really good explainer/teacher :| ....so you will need to research stuff to fully understand
     
  15. fortyfive

    fortyfive Forum Member

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    I'll go with the most powerful kernel thanks. It really is as simple as that.

    B
     
  16. lowrizzle

    lowrizzle Forum Member

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    I had written up some junk ripping Re-beat a new one for ignorance, I'm just going to take the high ground and unsubscribe from this thread. It's degraded into idiocy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  17. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    I think that would be best ! ;) ...your not a developer so you can't really contribute into the topic
    ---
    well there is an upside to that also for Linux device users .... a developer has almost completed an installer that can install iOS on a Samsung device ...he just needs abit more time to complete hardware compatibilty tweaks....the installer will be complete soon
    ---
    There may even be some legal issues for NI....PocketBand may have some copyrights...that NI needs to work around for Android ......PocketBand does blow away any music production app out there at the moment
     
  18. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    Sorry for the scattered / delayed replies ...I am very busy person & I don't always have time type out everything I want to say & in the world of development ...there is a lot ! :|

    But to add to my previous reply ....I am just being optimistic & hopeful
    Apple does have the head start & the money to stay on top ....they sucked a cool billion + from Samsung ....what does that show you ! ....donate that billion to Linux Developers & you will probably see a lot of amazing developments ....I am sure Samsung would have wanted to donate the money alot more to Linux.. than to hand it to Apple ;)

    What is Google doing ..exploiting everything ....they pay there Android OS developers while ...Linux & Custom ROM / Kernel developers work for practically free to patch up the holes in Android ..crazy ! .....its fun developing ! ...its the best !

    ...but Google has gotta push some funds our way if Android is going to evolve into anything really powerful & much as we thrive to surprise our selves with every new bit of code we write that opens another door ....we still would like to get paid ! ....something ...or at least be recognized by Google .....instead we are just rebel hackers ..hacking Android ...it doesn't need to be that way
     
  19. fortyfive

    fortyfive Forum Member

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    If Android can work close to iOS in latency, then more power to you! It would be great if it works. Having been in IT for too many years and watched linux be praised as the answer, I've waited for it to turn around. Maybe one day it will. But I just see the constant stream of users expecting all the good stuff to get ported to linux or Android. And, frankly, an expectation that being OSS it is somehow superior. Sadly its not and until Ableton Live, Cubase or all Native Instrument software is written for linux, I can't use any form of OSS.

    My grumpiness aside, I have no reason to wish failure on Android. I do think that its too multilayered, and relies too much on the work of others to operate. The most efficient coding is when you write everything, just like machine code in the old days was amazingly solid (MPC60 perhaps, or Roland MC sequencers).

    If Android can match Apple or Microsoft, then there's interesting times ahead! Hope you can make a difference.

    B
     
  20. Re-BeaT

    Re-BeaT New Member

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    Well .....maybe I used a bad choice of words earlier in a reply about Apple being 100 times more powerful .....that was wrong & its actually the complete opposite

    ......because don't forget Linux is the most powerful OS in the world .....after all it runs in Super Computers & Servers ! ......let's not praise Mac OS too much !

    Mac OS just has let's say better components than operating systems on Linux ....an IT developer will understand what I am saying .....its like how the brain doesn't have the ability to multitask ...it performs amazing doing just 1 thing .....Mac OS threw in the multitasking ....that's all

    About 85 % of programming is done by corporate developers ...:confused: