Integrating Spotify

Discussion in 'Feature Suggestions' started by Zoker, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

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    A little read of the Spotify licence and some of the posts by Spotify Moderators on their forum makes its very clear that Spotify cannot be used in a commercial way (IE: playing in a bar) and that Spotify will terminate the contract of anyone found or reported to be using it commercially.

    So... all these controllers and this DJ software that can be used with Spotify is only for personal use.

    Karlos
     
  2. DjMikC

    DjMikC New Member

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    Karlos I have in all of my years as a dj I have never seen a pro and I mean pro dj ever bring in a console. They always have used the cdjs and maybe some other hardware for effects.

    You should perhaps read up on Michael porters business strategy success case stud rides where companies can go out of business just as Kodak did in the 90's. It is inevitable that all music will eventually be streamed. Just as in all film became digital. It is inevitable that all computing will become tabletized, if that is such a word. The people who lead are the people who disrupt markets who can see into the future
     
  3. kallekenkel

    kallekenkel NI Product Owner

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    Exactly. If Traktor is not integrating Spotify tomorrow, they are DOOMED !!! Just like Apple is DOOMED if they don't show an iWatch anytime soon. DOOMED I tell you!
     
  4. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

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    I know plenty of pro DJ's that use controllers. Your world must be quite small if you do not know any pros using controllers.
    There are many big name DJ's that use a S4 on occasion.
    Also, I am a 'pro dj', it is how I make my living.

    I disagree. There are many copyright issues that will prevent this. You don't seem to acknowledge the fact that at the moment it is illegal to use Spotify for commercial purposes. This is not likely to change in the near future.

    Streaming music in a live situation is prone to failure. It will never be the medium by which serious DJ's work. I fear that you are being blinded by the technology. Just because new tech comes out it does not necessarily mean it will prevail.

    Oh and you are aware that NI have lead the competition for the last 10 years regarding DJ software aren't you? They have been ahead for a long time. Other companies have only caught up in the last 2 years. NI will not lose ground, I guarantee that this discussion will be rendered pointless within the next year.

    That is purely your opinion. Tablets are not going to take the place of all other formats. They will merely continue to be another format.

    ...and that is exactly what NI did with Traktor. They became No'1. I have no reason to believe that that won't continue.
     
  5. kallekenkel

    kallekenkel NI Product Owner

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    Hmm, I slightly disagree there.
    I too believe that we are just in the middle of the digitalisation area, and eventually all music and video will be streamed; Even in professional environments. However: 2014 is not the year. We are just at the beginning of these streaming services and a lot of things still have to shake out.. Buffering, licensing etc.
    Traktor will not suddenly lose significant market share in the professional segment because they do not offer spotify support. At least not in 2014/15. I agree that, at some point, Traktor probably needs to integrate streaming to stay competitive. But it is way too early to say whether this will be spotify, an Apple-own streaming service, google music, or even a Native-own service.

    People are getting impatient because Traktor has not had a major release for a while.. And as with Apple (I know that comparisons never work well, but just to make the point...), I'd rather want NI to closely monitor the market, have some discussions in the background, and then come out with a robust, kickass solution.
     
  6. DjMikC

    DjMikC New Member

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    I'm with you there kellekenkel.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. mastermc

    mastermc NI Product Owner

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    yes at some point traktor will have to evolve a tonne . Remix decks is not a big evolution
     
  8. DjMikC

    DjMikC New Member

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    @karlos how can you say that you have never heard of a promotor that has never hired a a spotify dj of course you won't have! That's because spotify has never been available to dj with.

    From a legal perspective I would like to know of a single dj who only plays with music that they have the right to dj with. It's impossible to police currently. Through something like spotify it would give artists a way of controlling their music better by djs paying a premium price to play music.

    Its only a matter of time before tablets have the capacity to manage a full suit software such as traktor pro.

    Last but not least occasionally djing with a controller is not the same a djs using cdjs as defacto.
     
  9. mastermc

    mastermc NI Product Owner

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    3,150
    or using vinyl
     
  10. hwielen

    hwielen New Member

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    I hope NI is implementing the new Spotify functionality soon, just as for example djay 2. See some details of this GREAT function below at the end of this post.

    This is a feature I have been hoping / looking for for a few years now and it is works great on djay 2! I own both the NI S4 Kontrol for operating Traktor as wel as the Pioneer DDJ SX which I use for Serato as well as Traktor (which I prefer). However it is kind of sad to see the competition of an iPhone app go faster in this field than NI :(. I would hate to buy a third controller and leave the Traktor platform just for the fact that they don't implement these (important) new features fast. Eventually it'll be there...I am sure of that. Hope it simply doesn't take another year of waiting because it is kind of sad to maintain 2 or even 3 music libraries (and pay for them all: iTunes, Beatport and Spotify).

    And please don't come up with the "professional DJ arguments". I think the majority (>80-90%) of the professional DJ's (at least in Europe) would use CDJ2000s to start with and not Traktor.

    I think for the Traktor target audience this would be a great addition to the platform. And even if you're worried about licenses etc: I'd still rather decide for my self where to play from what source. In my country the clubs (and radio stations, shops and even office buildings) simply pay fees to the institutions safeguarding the rights of musicians.

    By the way: Spotify isn't officially allowed to be used in offices or hotels (yup, seen that) either without additional licensing. That's why we have these organizations collecting money for them.

    I have been a professional DJ for ±16 years in the pre-controller and even pre-MP3 era and now retired for 8 years :). After dj'ing with just vinyl, the cd revolution and the MP3 revolution I am now ready for the streaming media revolution. I think NI / Traktor always have been revolutionary tools so please live up to that promise :).

    PS Yup, I am a bedroom DJ by now and I'm loving it. I would just use my Traktor setup 10x more often if it would play my Spotify playlists :).

    Here some background info from this djay 2 funtion:

    Tight Spotify Integration
    Find the best tracks to mix.

    Spotify integration in djay includes all of your existing playlists, starred tracks, and Inbox (to send real-time song requests to the DJ); powerful search capabilities, charts, browse (by genres, moods, DJs); and Match(for song recommendation).

    Users can seamlessly switch between Spotify and their existing local iTunes library, as well as mix tracks from both of these sources simultaneously.
     
  11. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

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    But it is illegal to use Spotify for commercial means. FACT. Doesn't matter what DJAY allows you to do.
    Until this changes NI would be stupid to implement this feature.

    There is no organisation collating or collecting revenues for artists from Spotify plays in venues (such as PRS in the UK).

    Here's a question for all in this thread:
    When was the last time someone from your local authority (PRS in the UK) came to your gig and took note of every single track you played..?

    I'll tell you when it last happened to me, 3 weeks ago. The woman from PRS sat next to my booth and used Shazzam to identify the music and the tracks she could not identify I had to tell her the Artist/Track. If I had been using Spotify she would have reported me and the venue to PRS because the venues licence does not permit it. Neither does the Spotify EULA.

    Until the legal ramifications of using Spotify are settled NI should direct it's R&D into the areas that Professional DJ's need Traktor for not cheap ass streaming of music cus it's free.

    I get that streaming 'may' become more viable and more common place but at the moment these arguments seem solely for the purpose of not buying the music in the first place so that bedroom DJ's can break out with little of no cost of buying a collection.

    If Spotify allow commercial use of music it will come with a hefty licence fee and I hope the cost is reflects the professional usage.
     
  12. hwielen

    hwielen New Member

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    @Karlos Santos, in The Netherlands this IS the case. Both Buma and Sena are responsible for this. See for example this information regarding dance music events http://www.sena.nl/files_content/Tarieven Dance.pdf on one hand. Also this post is a nice read explaining the relation between Spotify and Buma / Sena payments in a professional environment: http://www.marketingfacts.nl/berich...kantoor_of_in_een_winkel_eerst_even_afrekenen including the cost involved. A 200 square meter restaurant pays €1.213,84 a year (as an example) on top off the €10,- per month they pay Spotify. BTW this money goes to the artists, composers etc.

    You'd probably need Google Translate for the documents since they're in Dutch.

    On the other hand it still is your own responsibility: I think %-wise Traktor is more often used not in front of a (commercial) crowd and on the other hand if NI (or Pioneer, or whomever) thinks this is a big argument not to implement this why isn't NI worried about MP3 files?

    And I don't think it is not about not paying.... It's about paying 3 times (or more). I have tracks that I have on CD, vinyl and even pay for them with iTunes Match and now a Spotify €10 license. I want to use those in Traktor :).

    BTW probably that's also why Djay 2 only works with the paid Spotify license. On the other hand the venue (or radio station / website) pays to the respective authorities such as Buma / Sena, at least in The Netherlands.

    Of course it is totally up to NI to implement this or not. But looking at recent developments it would be smart to come up with some sort of timeline (never or "not in the near future" is also an answer). I do think they'll risk loosing users of their software if they do not move in this direction.

    Nb. Why would Spotify open up their platform and even cooperate with the software development guys if they do not support this for their paid subscriptions?

    Why the hostile reactions even when we all know that 90% of the global population is playing MP3s they do not own the rights for?

    I consider these kind of platforms (Spotify, Google Play, iTunes Match, Netflix etc etc) to be platforms that DO take care of the artists and composers? Especially if in a professional setting extra money is generated for them by collecting a % of the entrance fees via organizations like Buma and Sena? These are the new money makers for artists whereas the majority is now still using illegal (free) music sources. Also it gives them a platform to become more popular with a broader (paying) audience. For details how artists make money on Spotify please check: http://www.spotifyartists.com/spotify-explained/#how-we-pay-royalties-overview
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  13. Jowcke

    Jowcke New Member

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    I just wanted to add this before you spread false rumors ;)

    From spotify's offical site:
    • ~320 kbps (only available to Premium subscribers)
      • Desktop high quality.
      • Extreme quality on mobile.
     
  14. Jowcke

    Jowcke New Member

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  15. hwielen

    hwielen New Member

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    I picked up a Reloop Beatpad a few weeks ago (since NI is not reacting at all in this conversation and I have more money than patience ;) ) and I must say that I really like the Spotify integration!

    I just stashed my DDJ-SX and Kontrol 4 and I guess I left Traktor and Serato by now. Kind of sad but that's what happens if you do not innovate (fast enough). Remember Napster...?
     
  16. MeAngry

    MeAngry New Member

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    This hostile stance against the use of Spotify (or any other streaming service) by these so-called professional DJ's is so typical, even though I know they don't represent NI itself.

    Traktor was born in a time where MP3's were not deemed good enough for use as a DJ'ing source, heck even CD's were still in the very beginning of being accepted in clubs. The only way to legally obtain MP3's was to rip them yourself, or to buy them with DRM attached, which the latter often prevented you from using them with Traktor at all. Did that stop NI from creating Traktor in the first place? Did they consider that (I'm guessing) 90% of all music played with Traktor would be from illegal downloads? I don't know...

    But here we are now; Traktor is a standard in digital DJ'ing, and some Traktor "veterans" are talking down new solutions like Spotify because of licensing issues, which are the users responsibility to begin with.
    People started using Traktor with MP3's because they were more portable, easier to obtain and organize, but times are changing, and we can now access unlimited sources of music for as low as €10 / month. But it's still up to the user of those tracks to make sure he's allowed to use this where he wants, the same as with MP3's.
    But if he can't use Traktor, he will be using something else, like DJay, if he has to. A capable DJ can use different tools to do his work, nobody is solely limited to using Traktor you know...

    If they want to stay relevant, they have to move with the market. And they aren't too late yet, by far they aren't. This is a trend that has just started. But there's no need for anyone (even outside NI) to be so hostile about it. You sound just like those vinyl lovers back in the days that always kept saying that using anything else would never be taken seriously...

    I respect someone's opinion as much as the next person, but to call NI stupid for willing to move with the market (if they wanted to implement Spotify, nobody knows) is just being narrow-minded.
     
  17. kallekenkel

    kallekenkel NI Product Owner

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  18. MeAngry

    MeAngry New Member

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    I've read that, I agree with you, and this might be too soon, but I'm in no way impatient. I'll probably keep using my MP3's for the foreseeable future. But it irritates me how people put streaming of as a stupid investment, while integration in more and more DJ'ing suites just helps it become mature faster.
    Put in another way, I at least hope NI is looking into this, in how they could use something like this in the future. I hope they're more open-minded than the nay-sayers.
    Also, Spotify is gaining a lot of traction amongst the regular music listeners (in the Netherlands at least) and they have always been the fore-runners to what will happen in the DJ'ing industry, professional or not.
     
  19. kallekenkel

    kallekenkel NI Product Owner

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    Well, okay. Spotify is gaining traction amonst regular users in the Netherlands. That by itself is just not strong enough of an argument (yet!) to support Spotify globally on a professional level.

    Once more, I think the world is going streaming, and so might professional DJing at some point.. but it's just too ealry for NI to throw all their eggs in the spotify basket.

    Smaller companies can "just try things out" and see what sticks.. Traktor has a huge legacy & is used professionally on a massive scale. This is not the place to try things out and see if/how well it works. Traktor DJ for the iPad is a different story, imo.
     
  20. sibeer

    sibeer New Member

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    Coming across this pretty late but am just a little concerned about what you are saying with regards PRS. Are you saying that as a bar DJ you need to confirm the rights situation of each track you play? Playing a wide range of 80s and 90s stuff I mainly use a mix of rips from my old CD collection and the odd legal downloads. According to the inside of most CD's the license doesn't cover performing it in public. Have only played out twice and despite getting paid I view it as a hobby and could not dedicate the time and cash to contacting relevant parties to arrange a public broadcast license.

    I thought the whole point of PRS (and PPL) was to fill the gap between what is acceptable as a personal licence and what is acceptable as a business? If it doesn't do that then what are businesses actually paying them for? If it does cover such usethen surely the same applies to Spotify.

    As per many in the discussion here I would love to be able to add Spotify tracks to Traktor. For example a friend has asked me to DJ his wedding and has sent a Spotify playlist of some tracks he wants rolled in. Downloading an offline list in 320k would be perfect for this. As another person has mentioned it would also be great for trying tracks at home, even if the license meant you needed to buy the ones you want to play out.

    Separate to the legality of playing out and about, surely this is not NI's concern? The user is responsible for the decision as to whether to break the law, just as they are when they decide whether to pay for the MP3s on their laptop.