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Integrating Spotify

Discussion in 'Feature Suggestions' started by Zoker, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. kallekenkel

    kallekenkel NI Product Owner

    I would alos love to see a streaming service integrated in Traktor, don't get me wrong.. But I want it to be done right.

    Separate to the legality of playing out and about, surely this is not NI's concern?
    This argument does not count, for me. By the same logic, NI could integrate a Torrent client in Traktor ("it's not NI's concern what you do with it").. I think the company has a responsibility in assuring their users that using their features is legitimate.
  2. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Welcome To The Forum.

    Let me try to clear a few things up. Bare in mind this is a UK perspective and rather than (as some have done) post supposed 'grey areas' or 'myths' let's deal with some facts.

    In the UK PRS collect royalties on behalf of artists. This comes in various ways one of which is making any venue or shop etc that plays music to the public pay for a licence:

    "If music is ever played on your premises for customers or staff; for example, through radio, TV, CD, MP3 or computer speakers, or at live events, this is considered a ‘public performance’. The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 states you need to get permission from the copyright holder to ‘perform’ music in public – and a music licence grants you this permission."

    Obviously as a DJ you do not pay this, the venue pays it.

    EVEN SPOTIFY UK HAVE TO HAVE A PRS LICENCE. It is called the 'Online Music Licence'.

    Where PRS does affect you as a DJ is in 2 respects.

    A: They can and do make pre-arranged visits to venues and they can either ask you to email your final set list or they can sit there and right down every track you play. They do this all over the country and some of the money that is collected from the PRS licence then goes as royalties to the artists that DJ's play. PRS tend to visit large chain clubs such as Yates's, Scream etc. They have visited me at one of my clubs over 10 time in the last 5 years. I am not charged, I merely allow the PRS agent to make a list of what tracks I play. I actually have a good working relationship with the local PRS agent.

    B: PRS have a second licence call the 'Pro-Dub' licence. This licence is a legal requirement for all DJ's using copied media. This means if you have downloaded an mp3 directly, ripped a CD to mp3 or transferred an mp3 from one computer to another. The licence fee is based on the number of copies you make. Owning a CD does not give you any right to copy it. Owning an MP3 does not give you the right to copy it. Now this is where someone usually spouts some internet myth so instead of taking my word for it, here's the facts:

    Not true. The Terms & Conditions of any organisation such as iTunes or Spotify are not affected by PRS. The PRS licence allows you to play music and that is all. If the rights owner has not given you permission to use the media for commercial purposes such as iTunes and Spotify then the PRS licence is of no consequence. Let me very clear - even though it might not make any sense, it is illegal in the UK to DJ with iTunes downloads or Spotify tracks.

    I am not disagreeing with you on this. What people in this thread do not seem to grasp is that I do not have any opposition to what is being proposed - I merely maintain that it MUST be legal, and in the UK it is not.

    Wrong. It is most definitely NI's concern. Without going into detail NI have been caught in the middle of a copyright issue before which involved a world famous artist and his lawyers. NI will not put themselves in a position to be caught up in some legal battle when their resources are better spent elsewhere.

    Until Spotify change the T&C's in the UK or any other region regarding 'commercial use' and public playback, NI should not implement this feature.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. girafas

    girafas New Member

    just to clarify with regards to pacemaker, it doesn't allow you to record your mixs... if using spotify so i grasp theres no public play.. nor will there ever be cause spotify fucks the musical world with artists and royalties anyways.
    • Like Like x 1
  4. mastermc

    mastermc NI Product Owner

    nope it does not
    • Like Like x 1
  5. ThoPal

    ThoPal New Member

    Since there now are other DJ-softwares with this ability I assume the legal issues must have been resolved by now.
  6. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Not in the UK, only in certain teritories - the law differs across the EU.
    This is discussed further back in this thread.
  7. maara

    maara Forum Member

    Guys, weak up please... :) For a pretty long time we got no new major feature - you really think that someone would bother with something like spotify what is in this way probably the most legally complicated product/feature? Maybe in a world where an unicorn types the code using its horn..... ;)
  8. MoustachePink

    MoustachePink New Member

    Hi guys! There's my story: in the late 90's when I received my first unofficial beta of the very first version of traktor from my friends in Europe, there was no djs playing music in clubs using a dj software. Everybody used cds or vinyl records. First time I played on traktor for public was on my birthday, 12 April which is also a day of a astronautics in Russia. So I played for a huge crowd for 3 or 4 hours without any controller (because there were no special controllers in those days), using only shortcuts on keyboard. My set composed mainly from modern deeper sides of techno, some minimalistic house and experimental things that I made myself was sensationally successful. Some local newspapers even posted articles about that. But. Despite that other djs from this club were very impressed by the new thing called traktor none of them were taking it seriously as something for pros. It was just a toy for some performance. When I said to them that this is a future of djing they called me heretic and said that no one ever hire a dj playing MP3 from a computer. For now most of them use traktor everyday. What I want to say is that only time puts all things on their places. I still buy vinyl and play only vinyl dj sets in clubs. But I've got a traktor 10 sound card and some controllers which I use to create my own music and to play on home private parties. Spotify is a virtual jukebox of more than 20 millions tracks in 320 Kbps. It would just be wolderfull if I could have them all with me when I go somewhere.
  9. mastermc

    mastermc NI Product Owner

    what's funny is n.i. will do it sooner or later .
  10. kallekenkel

    kallekenkel NI Product Owner

    Exactly. When it's ready.
    When the legalities and licensing are clear (including recording, offline storage etc) and when the technology is ready.
    Music streaming services are still (comparably) young and the legal situation and app availability differs widely across the globe.
    In the US, for example, spotify is only one service amonst many other popular services such as rdio or beats.

    NI surely don't want to throw all their eggs into one basket, only to realize that the chosen service defaults or gets bought (like beats).
    So far, Spotify seems like a growing, stable company and I'm sure NI is looking into integrations.

    What people here need to understand is that just beacuase spotify is available (and great!!), it's not like NI just need to flip a switch and "turn it on". There is soooo much more that needs to be considered.
  11. electro_fiend

    electro_fiend Member

    I find Spotify seriously lacking for DJ use.

    Maybe one out of every five tracks I own is on Spotify. Their selection is tilted towards the mainstream. Of course, there are bound to be gems and little-known tracks within those 20 mil. But it's far and few between. For instance, if I look at their techno house offerings, it's mostly from big players like Hyperdub, Get Physical, Mute, Defected, Kompakt, Toolroom, etc.

    In that regard, support for YouTube would be more interesting. It has waay more tunes than Spotify and the underground is more well-represented. Sadly the sound quality on YT is so uneven.

    In any case, I expect DJs to bring a small but unique selection to a party. I don't think Spotify is all that unique. I admit it's become A LOT harder to try to be unique as nowadays, there's a market even for most ultrarare records on Discogs and such. But I still think you can do better than to bring along those 20 mil tracks from Spotify. /rant
  12. MusicHasARightToChildren

    MusicHasARightToChildren New Member

    Hilarious this thread reads like;

    Customer1 "We would love this feature"

    N.I. "No you don't know what your are talking about. Its legally and technically challenging. And our software is for PROS, (which is why its $100 lolz)."

    Customer2 "But I would be so wonderful, I already love your product and dont want to leave for another who has this feature"

    N.I. "yeah we could care less what are customers want. Instead of having a conversation about the hurdles it would take to overcome this and the steps we are actively taking to do so we would rather tell you its too hard and we can't do it"

    Customer3 "Wow but other smaller outfits have done just this... You are saying the best DJ software out there doesn't see the potential in integrations like this??"

    N.I. "yep thats pretty much what we're saying"

    Me. "Yo, get the Spotify people on the phone. Get their lawyers to look into the copyright issues. Have them charge me $100 bucks a month instead of $10 and have 1 off deals with larger 'working' djs that what to use this for their stadium shows and lets be done with this"
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
  13. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Welcome To The Forum

    Firstly, NI aren't in this thread - I am and I don't work for NI. I am a volunteer moderator. My views are my own, not those of NI.

    As for all these customers that want this Spotify function - I haven't heard one single professional DJ that wants this feature.
    It is not legal. Why the hell should NI start legal discussions about a feature that would barely benefit them.

    Every time someone mentions that another company has implemented this feature they simply forget that that company also states that you must not use Spotify for commercial purposes yet that is exactly what people will do.

    Of all of you that want a Spotify feature can any of you say that you won't use it commercially?
    And if you are bedroom DJ's that won't use it commercially why should NI use resources to develop 'bedroom dj' features - Traktor is pro software.

    BTW - I'm a big Boards Of Canada fan. The album title is 'Music Has The Right To Children'.

  14. innazone

    innazone New Member

    This is a very informative thread, and stimulated me to check out the software that does integrate with spotify. What a relevation!!!
    If NI doesn't go down this route they are dead in the water...
  15. TroyMichael

    TroyMichael Forum Member

    So apple now has a spotify like service..i would guess apple will also partner with a DJ software to do something similar to the DJay/Spotify combo.

    Streaming could be the future but right now I don't think this is something serious pro DJs would really want to use but i can see the wanna be or startup type DJs just loving this.

    One of the biggest Challenges DJs have these days is too much music... having a billions songs at your finger tips from streaming service is not going to make you a better DJ.
  16. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Using that software for commercial purpose is still illegal.

    I'd say that's even less likely. It is not permitted to use iTunes purchases for commercial uses (DJing) so I doubt they will change the EULA for streaming with DJ software.

    Apple are an incredibly closed book. I would be surprised if they teamed up with anyone. Time will tell.
  17. DerTolleDeeJott

    DerTolleDeeJott New Member

    Hello all,

    Algoriddim HAS got the Spotify premium option - but the price is a useless 96 kBit/sec stream ( Read this Thread in their Forum)

    Most DJ-Software can playback ITunes-Playlists and has access to the iTunes-Library. This is because of the iTunes-Library-File, which is easy to read out. Traktor can do this also, even music which is bought in the iTunes-store.

    There is in fact a legal issue by using "bought" Audio-files in a professional context. It´s legal when it comes to Beatport. It´s not when it is from iTunes.

    My personal opinion of adding features like this or not: For a club-DJ performing his "set" it does not matter at all, he will bring his stick with a couple of tunes. For a DJ in a far more open and mixed audience this will be the best opportunity to have all the hits in place (Hey.... do some more rhythmic music now... ABBA! and now this bob marley thing, what was it... alalalalalong.... and now madonna or even better Lady GAGA, no not this one , the song with california girls... [gets even worse when later in the evening...] AND SO ON). OK, two very extremes, BUT, in between these extremes it could be very helpful to use Spotify (or any other service) as another source for crate-digging. In fact, there has to be a license-model which allows using this service professionally.

    And there is another one: You cannot tell people anymore, that there is no connetion to the internet available. Some of them hand out their mobile telling me "...put this to your computer, I still have Internet-connection here...". My experience. Maybe you had this also already...

    ( off topic: It´s comparable to that good old times when a guy entered the booth, handind out a cassette-tape "you HAVE to play this...!" - remember? )


  18. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Still illegal in commercial context in the UK.

    The iTune node in Traktor was present before the music store was so popular. The point is in Traktor it is a way of utilising your music library - not using the iTunes store nor it's content which is as you say not legal to play commercially.

    And yet there still isn't a legal licence-model.

    Internet available or not, it's still bad practice and DJs are the ones responsible for stopping this. Everytime a DJ allows it they make it harder for the next guy to tell the punter that it is illegal, bad practice and more importantly will sound terrible.

    As professional DJs (and I am only concerned with professionals, I have zero interest in bedroom DJ features) we should be stopping this until a time that it benefits us and is legal and the quality is as good as it should be.

    I remember those day very well Tom. :)

  19. electro_fiend

    electro_fiend Member

    The characterization of q3 Ogg Vorbis (which yields bitrates around 95-110 kbps) as "useless" shows you're not very well informed.

    Scientifically sound listening tests have shown q2.2 Ogg Vorbis (that is, slightly *lower* quality than Spotify uses) to be audibly indistinguishable from the lossless original. Here's a link to one such test.

    In an ideal world, I would like to have something slightly higher than q3 just as an extra safety margin/protection against the odd track with problem samples. Nevertheless, there's absolutely no reason to make claims about q3 vorbis which turn out to be unsubstantiated as soon as you do a scientifically sound (i.e., non-sighted) listening test.
  20. electro_fiend

    electro_fiend Member

    Googling suggests they (EDIT: Spotify, that is) have a solution for commercial use in Sweden. So I guess they're working on it.

    In any case, the line between personal and commercial use is blurry, as is the line between bedroomers and pros. I think it's a fact that NI would lose a lot of business if they didn't carry towards consumers and prosumers of Traktor. I imagine that would hurt you as a pro as well (if their revenue was only a fraction of what it is today, they'd have a lot less money to improve the product).

    I believe many customers and potential customers of Traktor--especially young people--want this integration of Spotify (or Deezer/Quboz/etc) really badly. I think it wouldn't be wise for NI business-wise to ignore those calls simply because their is no licensing model for public events.