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i've mixed myself into a corner

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by StarSMASH, Mar 25, 2020.

  1. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    i am using maschine VST routed externally into logic. I have a mixture of FX in mashcine VST from the sound level to the group level (including essential sidechain compression), to automation. It is routed into logic on a channel strip that has a chain of FX as well.

    due to the whole chain of FX in different places, when i export the audio into logic, it sounds way too different. I'm only worried about a pad sound because the drums i can mix. I try adding all the FX on the sound level on cant seem to replicate the side the sidechain compression from the pad to the kick like it was in maschine (on the sound level). I can't both isolate the pad and keep the group interacting FX. When i solo the pad before export, i lose all of those FX. I say okay, this sucks but i'll keep the FX and just mix in maschine, forgetting that i have the chain of FX that i cannot import from logic into maschine, and plus that just seems like working backwards for an inferior workflow.

    I'm all out of ideas and may have actually hit a brick wall with this one. Seems like the best i can do is attempt to replicate the FX in logic, and i've even transferred the parameters verbatim, but it's still too different.

    Is there a way i can export the sound of the pad with the interacting sidechain FX while isolating the sound?

    edit- i've tried slapping a compressor on an empty sound slot in maschine and routed my pad to it with the same exact settings, then routed it through the same exact external source with the same processing as before, and somehow it still sounds different. i've quadruple checked everything twice and can't understand why there a reverby sound when i route the pad to the gate with the compressor which is then routed to logic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  2. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,658
    Why not trying a more traditional workflow...this sounds over"the top"complicated (no offense)
     
  3. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    8,233
    If you're going to replicate things later than stick to plugins that are available both in Maschine and Logic.
    Machines compressor is not very flexible, I avoid it, remember this thread, also started by you.
    I really, really hate bouncing to Audio but in this sort of situation it might be the easiest solution, solo the Pad and export from Master, so it keeps the FX and move on with your life :D
     
  4. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    Trust me, it is! I didn’t intend for this, but I’ve been experimenting with the optimal workflow for my needs with maschine VST + logic and got quality advice here. I’ve never encountered this problem to this extent though.
    i usually externally route sounds into logic and record them into their respective channel, but the sounds came out sounding different this time even when I recorded on the group level.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  5. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    lmao trust me, I can link about five other threads that I’ve started in regards to maschine VST workflow and maschine FX. As soon as I think I found my workflow, something makes me rethink it altogether.

    I’ve tried exporting the sound from the group setting and it didn’t maintain the FX, but you’re saying If I export from the master with all of the other sounds bypassed, it will preserve the FX even the side chainin compression? And isn’t file>export audio the same exact thing as drag and drop bouncing technically?
     
  6. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    8,233
    Yes, for everything except for side-chain because it needs the input to trigger the compressor, so you end up with two sounds together... But dont worry, D is here to save you:

    - Go to the Pad that triggers the side-chain, probably a kick(?) and in Sound>Output set the Audio destination to be "None", it will still trigger the Compressor but you won't hear the kick, export it as Audio. Done.
    Change the destination back.

    Kind of... But it depends on how you drag and drop, the settings on the menu like "source" also affect drag-and-drop.

    If you drag and drop from Keyboard Mode it will only preserve the Sound Lvl FX.
    If you drag and drop from Group or Pad Mode it will preserve both Sound and Group FX. (For individual pads you would need to Mute/Solo)
    Export from the menu with things solo/muted will perverse all layers of FX including Master Fx.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,658
    The most efficient Worflow that I find to avoid those type of issues, according to what people like (I think) in Maschine and how the workflow comes naturally when you work with it, if you use it as a vst plugin with routings, the best way to avoid any regrets during process is to create group busses in your daw for Maschine...It allows you to includes send fx in both system more easily I think....anyway, ...working with NI tools is always very complicated because you are never really free in your creative process and locked into the NI technical prison :cool:.
    So many pitch problems in this DAW it is incredible and if the track is not done fast, you can be sur it'll be quickly messed up for non understandable reason !!! Anyway... keep digging, I'm sure you'll end up finding the right way to succeed .
    Good Luck !!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    man...you don't know how much i appreciate this. I've been hacking away at this for hours and thought all hope was lost and was rethinking my whole life up to this point :D.

    So anytime you want to keep side chained effects but still isolate the sounds before exporting, just set the non essential audios outputs to "none" and export the master from the main menu.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    seriously. I feel for the beginners that have yet to know what they've got themselves into just looking at my progress and how much i had to go through. Glad the community is always so helpful though otherwise this stuff would've ended up in the trash long ago.

    I don't create group buses in maschine because then i'd have to be absolutely sure about my levels between all sounds towards that bus before i export to mix in the first place....which is where i adjust my levels! unless you're thinking of a better way?

    What pitch problems do you speak of within maschine? yes, maschine workflow is gruesomely slow.
     
  10. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    8,229
    As a side(chain) note, the same can be achieved by setting the level of the sidechain source/trigger to silence (-inf), which means that it can be automated within and between Patterns e.g., a Pattern with the sidechain effect and the same Pattern but without the sidechain effect.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  11. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    8,229
    Mix in MASCHINE? Limit yourself in what you do in MASCHINE before exporting e.g., only "creative" effects in MASCHINE and leave all dynamics and mixing work until after the export?

    I think it's more that your MASCHINE workflow is gruesomely slow. ;)
    While it certainly has its hang-ups, gotchas, and spaces for improvement, workflow is arguably one of the best and main things people use it for. I know if I had to give one reason I use it for so much and so often and have done for so long, it would be that.

    Which issue(s) in particular?

    I feel like you might have just had some "bad luck" or, at least, a worse-than-average experience.
     
  12. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    but he was speaking of group bussing your sound slots in maschine prior to exporting which in my case isn't conducive for mixing in logic


    well, if you're JUST using maschine, yea. But maschine VST (which is what i meant) workflow is a common gripe among the community.
     
  13. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    very useful as well! thank you!
     
  14. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    the only pitch problem i have issues with is when i find a sound that i like in the sampler and want to use it as an instrument. better to work within the audio module for this but then you have to do a bunch of stretching and still be within the confines of maschines pattern mode, so i just use kontakt sampler as a VST and skip that process altogether.

    This also just happened with a chord sound that i liked in the sampler, but there were no variations of the same chord in different keys available and i couldn't get the chord progressions that i wanted. I attempted to pitch shift the thing to hell and back, and of course automation sucks in maschine, so i pitch automated within my DAW from semitones to cents and it still sucked.
     
  15. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    8,229
    I read it as meaning to make buses in the DAW/host, not in MASCHINE.

    Or AU for you, as you're using Logic, no? Pedantry aside, though, I take that there are various complaints and dissatisfied users of MASCHINE as a plugin, but there are also a number of good workflows. It just depends how you want to work and what features of MASCHINE and/or your DAW you can't live without.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    oh i see about the group bussing which i read wrong. yes that is useful and i do that.

    Yes, i meant AU actually :D. I do like how versatile your options are for the workflows, but it really takes some of the most trial and error (and headaches and regrets) that i've ever had to deal with making music. I know it comes with the territory, but i'm just stating my experience with it. I learned all of the workflows (that i know) and don't have as many problems now because when i experience what seems like a brick wall, i have the many other options to choose from. menu export, drag and drop, external source routing and recording, even automating maschine AU's FX straight through logic with editable automation lines and all. it's crazy and definitely isn't something to learn overnight if you're new, but i've grown accustomed to it.
     
  17. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,658
    Yes if you get what I mean, routing Maschine groups to Logic track as mix buses is for me more efficient in the way that you kind of keep the Maschine standalone workflow , adding simultaneous Stem mixing in your Daw of choice where you can do Buss automation and processing. I personally prefer now to sequence, mix, pan and EQ, process individual tracks in Maschine which I find much faster workflow, avoid any Group processing if I plan to export all individual tracks to Mix in my Daw but the more it goes , It only depends about what processing power is still available in the project . If Maschine, one day (I hope) handles hyperthreading, I'll probably do it all in it, except for projects with vocals that need appropriate treatment since audio editing is not a straightforward thing (still with the sampler you can do it all very efficiently in an old fashion but it brings you back in the old days).
     
  18. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,658
    Too many to quote, but it has always been a thing in every programs and I already reported everything in the beta forum or here when it was appropriate. No complaint here and as many long time user I learned not to complain and be happy with what I have...and work around ;)
     
  19. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    8,229
    Just an example or two then?
     
  20. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,658
    For exemple I have a projet with a sine bass sound generated with stock sampler sampler .
    Track is finished and all pattern sequenced in arranger view, for some reason arriving at mesure 81 the pitch of my bass get wrong !! (just a little but about -30cent fine tune) . I check everything, no env mod automation in sampler,no eq automation (still I'll check again) no pitch bend automation recorded, no controller sending anything at that moment , etc etc.... like I must end up export my pattern to retune my bass in a Daw at that moment...pitch problem can come for so many reason and places
    I inserted an empty scene at the begining on the track to change position on the timeline to try to narrow things down but to no avail...thats an exemple among others , and many clumsiness here and there that are obviously not necessary to achieve a good sound in my opinion:D... but hey, as said above I work around...in anyway, I am from that background that keep practicing its passion and I am not doing it for a living but still very passionate and it took me so long to have a bit of comfort in my workflow (time, money, learning curve, etc etc) , still, I keep dreaming and try to improve my skills, and Maschine is great for me as it is fast and since I can only focus here and there for 10/20/30 min , 180 when lucky, it is nice for me and helped me a lot to get better result, still, the one shot composing is the only way to stay cohesive in a track IMHO for very pragmatic reasons (mood, vibe, energy...) so I have many thins unachieved and my overall creations still sound unprofessional for many reason.... Quaity means time and deication.. but you know this very well :p