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Komplete Kontrol - Will you ever improve CPU efficiency?

Discussion in 'KOMPLETE KONTROL SERIES' started by davemacp, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. davemacp

    davemacp NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    395
    Yes, I know you're basically running a plugin inside of a plugin when using KK, but you created this software so why is the burden of ridiculous CPU usage being put on the customer if you knew the idea wasn't feasible to begin with?

    Let us know, is the issue of (sometimes massively) increased CPU use ever going to be improved or is this it?

    I've tried to stick with KK, mainly for the lightguide, but I've had enough. Slate and Ash cycles is unusable in KK, but runs fine in kontakt standalone. Same goes with a thousand other libraries and plugins. It may not be noticeable with a low cpu synth, but you start pushing it with something heavier and KK collapses compared to running outside of KK.

    It's got to the point now where it isn't worth the trade off at all as I can't even use a single key without CPU issues in KK (again, with cpu heavy apps). And I haven't even touched on how much slower KK is to use as far as loading times etc...

    Honestly, you continue to push NKS as the future and you sucked me in, I admit, but the CPU issue continues to not be improved. Infact it feels like it's only getting worse as apps gets more intensive. It's a great idea but if it can't be tweaked, it's waiting to die and will go the way of kore IMO.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. PvAProductions

    PvAProductions NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    48
    Agreed!

    Because Maschine has 16 Pads, and we only have 10 fingers, that doesn't mean you can't play it at all!
     
  3. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,752
    Can you offer some examples of specific numbers and your OS specs and which plugins to compare because I cannot say I have experienced that at all. I use KK in almost every track with loads of different plugins within Live and do not seem to have any issues with additional load.
     
  4. Stormchild

    Stormchild NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    420
    I don't find the CPU usage of Komplete Kontrol to be a problem. It's the initial loading time, which is really quite unreasonably long. The more NI and third-party NKS products you install, the longer it takes each instance of KK to load. I believe the database size is the problem.

    I have Komplete 12 UCE, Arturia V Collection 7 and FX Collection, all NKS-compatible instruments from Synapse and u-he, and a few other NKS plugins. My NI database is over 300 MB, and this has to load into memory for each KK instance. I know they aren't using a shared DB, because I can save a new preset in one, rescan user presets (this is another, separate issue — newly-saved user presets don't show up in the browser until you manually rescan), and it will then show up in the one instance, but still doesn't appear in any other KK instances that were already open until I manually rescan user content in each one. So it seems safe to conclude they each have their own in-memory representation of the same data, and therefore each one is incurring the same slow startup penalty. Additional instances after the first one do load a bit faster, but that's almost certainly due to caching in the OS and hardware.

    It wasn't always this bad. My guess is the problem was made much worse when they added indexing of loops and one-shot samples in Komplete Kontrol 2.0 as part of the Sounds.com integration deal. I don't use Sounds.com, but this also resulted in every single sample in every installed Maschine expansion is also indexed so you can browse them in KK. In my case, that means 18,000 loops and 67,000 one-shots for a total of 85,000 extra items in my database — and every single one of them has tags and other metadata. I don't want this feature, but there's no way to turn it off. By comparison, I have about 47,000 presets across all of my plugins. Almost 2/3 of my database is indexes of samples I have literally no use for, but I have no choice but to wait for every instance of Komplete Kontrol to load the entire list of those samples into memory, every single time.

    I reported this as a bug months ago. Here's hoping they'll eventually decide to make performance the top priority it should be. The latest update added background scanning, which is nice, but doesn't address this problem at all. Scanning was never the problem for me (someone always suggests this, but it's not the issue). I expect scanning to be slow, but it only happens after installing something new. It's not scanning each time; it simply takes a long time to load the existing database.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,752
    Think we ran over and compared things between us and I believe you are probably right in the number of sound files you have indexed (one shots) etc. My database is 531MB and about 160,000 NKS files but I do not have any Maschine content or samples or anything indexed in Komplete Kontrol, I don't use Maschine so have nothing listed in One Shots or Samples and things seem to work fine for me.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. davemacp

    davemacp NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    395
    Yeah, sure. My specs: 2013 mac pro 6-core, 64mb ram, ssds all round. Mojave latest. Logic latest - 256 buffer. Apollo twin interface.

    So I just opened a new logic project, 2 tracks, one with KK and one with kontakt. I loaded in Analog Dream's first preset, Ampere Lead. Both interfaces are open at once, resting CPU at ~12% in activity monitor.

    A 3 note chord in KK.

    Screenshot 2020-08-25 at 13.26.02.png

    The same chord in Kontakt.

    Screenshot 2020-08-25 at 13.27.16.png

    I waited for the cpu % to level out, these weren't initial spikes, and I also ran the same test three times. This is what I see consistently, somewhere between 20-40% more cpu usage if running the same synth / library in KK rather than outside of it.

    I know activity monitor has its quirks, but whatever they may be, it pretty clearly shows kk uses substantially more cpu.
     
  7. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,752
    Have you compared results in another daw like reaper? I’m more inclined to think logic has the issue since it doesn’t handle VST and of course you are using a VST to AU wrapper there so my moneys on Logic. I see no difference on Windows with VST in Ableton Live
     
  8. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    6,132
    Is he? Can't see why, KK comes as an AU too
     
  9. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,752
    Yes, which is why it is a VST to au wrapper :)
     
  10. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    6,132
    I didn't think of it that way but I see
     
  11. davemacp

    davemacp NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    395
    You may be right, can someone qualified from NI comment? If that is the case, I think you should let logic users know up front seeing as how logic is featured heavily in your marketing. Like a banner across the top of the page with something like "KK USES 40% MORE CPU IN LOGIC, YOU'RE WELCOME"

    Will KK ever get AU compatibility? I don't understand why Maschine's fine with AU but KK isn't, they both seem to handle midi commands the same way?
     
  12. turtletheory

    turtletheory New Member

    Messages:
    16
    I am with you both on being extremely frustrated with the loading times of Komplete Kontrol. I own 263 NKS libraries and it consistently takes about 15 seconds to instantiate a single Komplete Kontrol plug-in. This is on a 2018 Mac Mini; 3.2 GHz 6-Core i7; 64 GB 2667 MHz DDR4 RAM, running Catalina 10.5.6 and Logic 10.5.1 with the NKS library content stored on a 4TB Samsung 860 SSD connected via Thunderbolt 2 to a Blackmagic Thunderbolt Dock, and with the "Scan user presets on startup" option in Komplete Kontrol's settings turned off.

    NI pushes NKS so hard, and it's obviously a great concept with the tight integration with S-series keyboards and Maschine, but these loading and performance issues are astounding, essentially punishing customers with an ever-worsening user experience with every dollar they spend on additional libraries.

    Is NI aware of just how bad this issue is? It would be nice to at least get an acknowledgement from the Komplete team that they are aware of the problem and have an ETA for improvements. I get that you can't "sell" performance improvements the same way you can with a shiny new piece of hardware or plug-in, but as a customer there's no point in investing in this ecosystem if they're not going to invest in its stability and performance.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,234
    You can sell me performance improvements any time, any day, any place.
     
  14. MyStudioOne

    MyStudioOne NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    155
    I am using an i7-6700 witth only 32 GB ram with an 800 GB NKS library and don't have any of these issues regardless of the number of instances I use. If the difference is with the translation of VST into MAC format, then WOW, something needs to change. Really a shame that Apple always has to do things differently for seemingly no good reason, because in this case it has created a massive bottleneck for VST developers. This is something to be considered by anyone sitting on the fence about using MAC or Windows in the studio.
     
  15. Pcode

    Pcode NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    60
    I am not having any CPU issues with KK I am on i7 9700K @ 5GHz 32GB RAM windows 10.
     
  16. Sevmem

    Sevmem New Member

    Messages:
    2
    I'm on a PC and I cant even get sounds to trigger after waiting for 30 seconds to load e.g. Session Guitarist Picked Acoustic. There is something definitely wrong about all of this. I cant believe people here just brushing it off claiming that they are not having any issues. What kind of a response is that???....So does that mean that there are no issues and we're the problem??? Well some of us are having issues.......shouldn't they be acknowledged at least??
     
  17. MyStudioOne

    MyStudioOne NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    155
    Is your PC performing badly generally speaking? i.e. have you considered that the problem might be your PC? Even an older PC would not perform that badly under normal circumstances. You have nothing to lose troubleshooting your PC performance and do process of elimination. i hope you get it sorted out.
     
  18. Sevmem

    Sevmem New Member

    Messages:
    2
    I have a solid performing PC and often use loads of Steinberg's Absolute collection with no triggering issues. This is definitely a problem with Kontakt....if this wasn't so there wouldn't be Youtube work around uploads for the problem. I have I7 - 8700 - 3.7ghz with 32 gigs of Ram Windows 10......the link below has only 8 Gig of Ram.
     
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  19. MyStudioOne

    MyStudioOne NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    155
    hmmm. Do you have your NKS library stored on an SSD drive and is your Absolute library (which you say works fine) in the same location? If not, I would start there. My point is that maybe rather than "kontakt" being the problem per se, perhaps there is a read/write bottleneck due to where your library is stored? A solid state drive makes a huge difference for read/write times and preferably on a drive that isn't share with your OS (which should also be on an SSD!). There has got to be an explanation AND a solution because it just doesn't make sense. If Kontakt works as expected for 99% of PC users, then does it not stand to reason that the 1% likely just have some type of configuration issue to work out?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  20. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,752
    You need to keep in mind that some kontakt libraries (especially if stored on a platter HDD) take some time to load up into RAM.

    It's typically the response suitable for the application :)

    Have you done a comparison with Kontakt loading the same thing and doing the same test and comparing to loading with Komplete Kontrol? Many people complain about "things are slow, takes ages etc" but don't offer a proper test to be compared by others.

    Ram is one thing, as long as the system has enough that will be fine but what about your drive? That is where most bottlenecks are and my guess is you do not have your Komplete content on an SSD? If it is on a standard HDD then this sounds about right to me, no other specs in your system will improve this.

    I only have Komplete 10U so do not have that instrument to test but if the issue is simply it takes some time for the instrument to be ready to play and it is not running from an SSD, sounds normal to me.