Kontakt as VST3.5 instrument to use new Note Expression Protocol

Cubase 6 is out and it is totally unbelievable that is now possible to assign controller data to NOTES instead of global MIDI channel data, basically you can give each note in a chord different controller values (Mod, pitch, expression etc) but if NI / Kontakt still stays at the old VST 2 format this will not work!

So please NI upgrade to VST3.5 asap!

check THIS out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZm8c0kr1Io&feature=related

 

+1
Vst expression 2 looks very promising!
I understand it's not easy to implement but i think it will be awesome for orchestrators and composers using Kontakt

 

Probably won't happen before Kontakt 5. If ever.

 

That's a pitty .
Sample libraries speaking the same 'language' would be very helpful.Now we are strangling with different scripts and key switches.

 

You're gonna have to explain this in a better way. VST3.5 won't make these things (keyswitches and scripts) magically disappear, or change in a radical way. Scripts are still here to do stuff VST3.5 doesn't have natively. Not every sample library would benefit from VST Expressions 2. Plus, "old" sample libraries (before VST3.5) certainly won't be upgraded to adhere to the standard, so you're back to square one.


I say nothing really magical would happen with VST3.5 implementation.

 

Ok ,maybe key-switches and scripts won't dissapear,but don't you feel that a Kontakt orchestra library user would benefit by these features?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZm8c0kr1Io"]YouTube - Cubase 6 - New Features 2 - The revolution unfolds VST Expression 2[/ame]

Won't it be helpful if i can add articulations to a string section the same way using ANY sample library?
I understand that Kontakt stands opposite to Steinberg's Halion but VST is moving forward the right way.I just hope Kontakt follows the steps.

 

Sorry but this is not correct, I suppose you did not check out the actual benefits of VST 3.5 yet.

1. Note expression is completely undependent of ANY sample library, old or new, the key feature is if a sampler VSTi like Kontakt will "understand" VST3.5 it will be possible to not only receive midi values on a channel globally, but being able to interpret more MIDI values which are NOTE dependent.
Meaning: you could change expression or any parameter you want for each note in a CHORD, so that is the huge benefit in polyphonic or simply overlapping MIDI events

For example: right now, on one MIDI channel you can give each note in a chord a certain velocity. Ok. But can you give EACH NOTE in this chord or overlapping notes different loudness envelopes, automate different filter sweeps, pitch bend or mod wheel data? NO.

But with VST3.5 this is possible! Of course HALion will have it, but how about Kontakt ?


2. VST Expression (not NOTE Expression, see above) is undependent of sample libraries and also not necessary to use with Kontakt or even necessary to change Kontakt to VST3.

You can simply build your own Keyswitch maps for old libs, or download the maps for more current libs like Vienna Instruments, also it has been announced that there will be expression maps for East West libraries.

So, two different topics here!

 

Polyphonic aftertouch.

 

This does look very interesting indeed. Steinberg are obviously going to be at the forefront of this new technology, incorporating it into all their instruments, so yes, it would be wise of NI and other manufacturers to follow suit.

It certainly helps if you're in control of the protocol as Steinberg (Yamaha) are.

Please take note NI. This is one you can't ignore.

 

I am doing mostly orchestral work so I really need to know if Kontakt will be future proof by implementing that protocol which is indeed a MIDI revolution. Hope to get an announcement soon, I might be in the mood to switch to the new HALion. Hope NI does not stick to old VST 2.4 format for a possible Kontakt 5.

 

I will add to this --

Even if not the Note Expression, it would still be awesome to have a VST3 version of Kontakt to get MULTIPLE MIDI PORTS. This is potentially a very simple implementation in the VST3 SDK. Then you could take advantage of all 4 MIDI ports in Kontakt as a plug-in instead of only accessing 1 (only 16 channels).

 

Can't see the point meself.

If you want to give different notes different characteristics in the same channel, just put the samples in separate groups using different areas of the keyboard. I do it all the time.

Actually yes. But perhaps someone could suggest a scenario where this would be useful?

 

Any polyphonic instrument where each voice sounds best with a variation. Choirs, strings etc.

It's the variation in timbre that brings a real orchestra to life and the lack of variation that can make regular midi orchestrations appear static.

Of course, it's not useful for everything. Certainly in modern popular music where synthesisers etc are best played uniform, it's use is more limited but i'm glad to see Steinberg raise the bar another notch.

 

Indeed, polyphonic aftertouch is a feature of the MIDI standard that enables you to modulate a particular note in a chord. However, this gives you just one parameter to modulate. On the contrary, VST Note Expression is a much more powerful concept. It should be definitely adopted by NI.

And you are happy with this approach? Doesn't it seem cumbersome to you? In my opinion, this is just a widely adopted workaround, nothing more than that.

Personally, I'm not going to buy the full Kontakt until it is ported to VST3.5

--
Miloslav

 

I'd love to be able to understand what this is all about. (Yes I am very happy by the way).

Most orchestral instruments have a range of 2 or 3 octaves. The MIDI keyboard supports 10 1/2 octaves. I have multiple instruments on a channel, spread out over the keyboard, e.g. 1st/2nd clarinet, oboe1/oboe2/cor anglais, each in its own group, with different cc#s for volume, attack, release, EQ or whatever I want. (There are 128 cc#s to choose from). Takes a moment to set up. I use breath control, so there is plenty of expression. There's no overlap on the keyboard so the different instruments can't switch each others' notes off.

What am I missing?

 

Hello, Stephen,

in your case, as you have described it, each instrument naturally carries a distinct voice. Therefore, you can place it in its own group the way you do it and you are able to apply the modulation by means of Control Changes. Yes, I agree. But if you want to create, for instance, a sophisticated and evolving synth pad then it is far more intuitive to keep all the simultaneously playing notes in the same group and apply the modulation to the individual notes within that group. In this scenario, splitting the notes into separate groups just for technical reasons is a real creativity killer.

However, even for your orchestral work, the usage of the ordinary MIDI channel-based CCs has a significant drawback: if you have more than one voice triggered from the same MIDI channel then the association between a given CC and its modulation target is not captured in the MIDI data itself! Instead, you have to set the modulation routing within your DAW and/or the VST instruments. Actually, this is the same situation as if you were writing a standard musical score and you weren't able to write the crescendo/decrescendo signs into the corresponding staff. The only possibility you would have is to write the signs in different colours at the top of the score page and then you would have to tell the musicians: "Note that if a dynamic sign is printed in blue then it is always addressed to the clarinet. Don't forget this, ladies and gentlemen!" Funny? No, this is the reality of adopting those workarounds you mentioned.

In other words, musically relevant information should not be spread over different places within your project in your particular DAW. The whole composition should be captured, as much as possible, in the MIDI data only. This concept ensures clarity as well as portability of your work. And VST 3.5 is a step towards this direction.

--
Miloslav

 

Hi, nice to exchange ideas with you.

I think the discussion is going to be handicapped by lack of information. I can find nothing on the net about even the basic principles of this new standard. One thing is certain, its new tricks will not be done via standard MIDI messages: the MIDI note message has 22 bits, 4 to say it's a note, 4 to specify the channel, 7 the pitch of the note and 7 the velocity. There isn't room for any more information. I expect the new stuff will involve an alternative means of communication between host and plugin, like automation.

I suspect our ways of working are very different. I use my own sequencing software and my default music file has 16 channels each with 2 tracks. If I'm going to record 1st and 2nd clarinets on the same channel, I open channel 6 track A. First time I have to tell it what cc# to use for volume, but after that it remembers. I record the 1st clarinet part (including its volume envelope) with a breath controller, then open channel 6 track B. I choose a different cc# for volume, then layer the 2nd clarinet (whose samples occupy a different part of the keyboard). In theory I could merge the 2 tracks and then layer a 3rd instrument on the same channel. At playback all the notes and all the different cc messages stream through the same port. Simple intuitive and nothing to workaround.

Just making use of some of the huge capacity of the Kontakt instrument (10 1/2 octaves, 127 velocity settings, 128 controllers) which is massively underused by the majority of programmers.

(I've no idea how the usual DAWs work but I can't imagine that it isn't possible for them to do what I've described: using entirely standard MIDI messages.)