KONTAKT's 5 'The Vienna Symphonic Library vs. THE OTHER 'Vienna symphonic Library'

There is one thing which I do not get.

Samples from 'The Vienna Symphonic Library Orchestra' (which can be found in original KONTAKT 5 which comes along with KOMPLETE 8 which I bought) and 'Vienna symphonic Library' from vsl.co.at do not come from the same producer therefore Kontakt's 5 Symphonic Library is NOT a shortened version of the 'Vienna symphonic Library' from vsl.co.at, am I right? Or am I wrong?

If I am right then why do they share the same name?
Two libraries mentioned sound completelly different which is an argument in favor of the fact that they were made by two different companies.

The samples from those two libraries must have been recodred in two different environments. (WTF?)
'The Vienna Symphonic Library Orchestra' which comes with in original KONTAKT 5 is more dry and feels more 'close'.

This 'Vienna symphonic Library' from vsl.co.at on the other hand sounds more spacious, the samples sound more far away....at least it is what I can tell from demos.

Compare solo violins without any effects from those two mentioned libraries to see what I am talking about.

 

All VSL libraries are recorded dry with close mics, any reverb you hear on VSL demo's have a reverb process added, although the Vienna MIR room simulator is the most advanced form of room simulator around, as the demos have probably used this.

The VSL samples in Kontakt are taken form the normal VSL library, but are considerably smaller in sample count and velocity layers.

 

...so, it would seem that Native Instruments and VSL company have some kind of contract in a way that the latter company enables the NI company to use their symphonic libraries in KONTAKT (Factory Library) editor, right?

...so I have to believe you (or pay huge amount of money and find out myself )
that the the basic sounds are dry and are recorded dry with close mics (which is GREAT ! if it is true because for instance East West Quatinum Leap symphonies samples in contrast to VSL - are not dry be default), but:

Does 'Vienna Instruments User Interface' contain any built in different environments simulator?
Right now I am looking for a cameral room sound...
I've just reviewed more demos from vsl.co.at and it would seem that 'Vienna Instruments User Interface' ENABLES to emulate MAAANYY different environments. So:
Does 'Vienna Instruments User Interface' contain any built in different environments simulator?

 

This VSL orchestra version has been in Kontakt since Kontakt 2, VSL used to sell their instruments in a version for Kontakt before they developed their own software.

I only have the free "Player", which does not have room simulation. I don't know about the Vienna Instruments Pro software. Vienna Ensemble Pro doesn't have room simulation either, I think you need Vienna MIR for that.

MIR is expensive highly specialized software, if you "just" want room simulators you should try Reflektor and Reaktor first. Maybe your DAW also has a good Convolution Reverb. SpaceDesigner in Logic is pretty good.

 

I will try to be more specific.

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoId=4601
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoId=4608

The two samples above were taken from vsl.co.at and those samples picture very well what I had in mind when I said 'room simulators'. Is it possible to acomplish THAT environmental sound with 'free VSL Player' (I know what it is) or do I still need Vienna Instruments Pro (which might have this simulation or might not have this simulation) or Vienna MIR or other mentioned by you software devices to acomplish this sound?

 

Vienna Instruments Pro only has algorithmic reverb, no convolution. I can't tell if this is Instruments Pro reverb of MIR convolution. I think you can get pretty close to that with the solo violin, the solo cello from the Kontakt Library and Reflektor. Have you been playing with Reflektor yet?

 

I've just played with a dry piano VST and put it through Reflektor built into my Guitar Pro 5. Reflektor is a handy tool however the room effects built into Reflektor did not even come close to the reverb in links I posted in my previous post.

You are right that the reverb from Kontakt 5 is exactly what I am looking for HOWEVER Kontakt's 'The Vienna Symphonic Library Orchestra' do not even come close to the original full Libraries found in vsl.co.at IN TERMS OF ARTICULATION sooooooo maby there is a way to purchase VSL library and play in through reverb build into KONTAKT 5?

So what do I really want?

It would be great to get:

1. full VSL Library (quite cheap) with realistic and full articulation (which honestly is very limited in KONTAKT 5)

with

2. this convolution reverb (if this is the one used in the samples I posted in my previous post)
- preferably Vienna MIR. The issue is money - How much would it cost? Or eventualy play with VSL library through KONTAKT 5 built in reverb if there is the way to do so.

My library should consist of full instruments list:


The ones found in SYMPHONIC CUBE – 10 VIENNA INSTRUMENTS

VI01 Solo Strings
Solo violin
Solo viola
Solo cello
Solo double bass

VI02 Chamber Strings
Violin ensemble
Viola ensemble
Cello ensemble
Double bass ensemble

VI03 Orchestral Strings I
Violin ensemble
Viola ensemble

VI04 Orchestral Strings II
Cello ensemble
Double bass ensemble

VI05 Harps
Harp 1
Harp 2

VI06 Woodwinds I
Flute 1
Oboe (French style)
Clarinet
Bassoon
Flute ensemble
Oboe ensemble
Clarinet ensemble
Bassoon ensemble

VI07 Woodwinds II
Piccolo
Flute 2
Alto flute
Oboe (Viennese style)
English horn 1
English horn 2
Small clarinet in Eb
Bass clarinet
Contrabassoon

VI08 Brass I
Trumpet
Horn
Tenor trombone
Tuba
Trumpet ensemble
Horn ensemble
Trombone ensemble

VI09 Brass II
Piccolo trumpet
Bass trumpet
Triple horn
Horn ensemble/Epic Horns
Bass trombone
Contrabass trombone
Contrabass tuba
Wagner tuba
Cimbasso

VI10 Percussion
Standard percussion
Mallets
Bells
FX Percussion


How many years one has to work to afford Vienna Symphonic Library consisting of those instruments + Vienna MIR?
EVERYTHING from VSL is sooo expensive. Why Uncle Sam? Why?
What about that 'Vienna Ensemble Pro' - does it have all instruments I enlisted above? I assume that in terms of articulation all original products from VSL are sufficient enough.

 

If you're not supposed to make a full production of symphonic compositions of Wagner, Mahler etc on a Hollywood budget you don't need everything they have.

Symphonic Cube is great but if you want more articulations you need the full (standard+extended) version, that's €6000 (5000 excluding VAT, I take it you're a professional?).

I don't have assignments that give me budgets like that so some time I'll get me the standard SE/SE+ bundle: 517 excl VAT. And then I'll buy the extended libraries for Woodwinds, Woodwinds +, Brass and Brass+ piece by piece.

MIR is €667 excl VAT. I'm just going to skip that, I'm satisfied with Reflektor for now, you can use other impulse response files in it.
---

It's so expensive because it's the most advanced and biggest orchestra and the market for it is small. You can't expect over 50 articulations per instrument, performed by top musicians on top instruments on a specially built silent stage to be affordable if it's sold to so few people.

You can buy a lot of instruments in the full version per instrument, by the way, and you get a discount for them if you start with the SE.

Vienne Ensemble Pro only has a trumpet ensemble, a string orchestra, an oboe d'amore, a cornet, one percussion kit and a woodwind ensemble. Great sound but not for serious orchestration.

Articulations are insufficient unless you buy a full instrument with extended library.

 

I am an amateur musician man, I am just passionate about the subject hence my inquary.

Could you give me liks from vsl.co.at to that STANDARD and EXTENDED versions please? 50 articulations for each instrument? Man, even 12 or 13 articulations would be enough for me, honestly.

I compared both Kontakt's 5 'The Vienna Symphonic Library Orchestra' Library and 'SYMPHONIC CUBE – 10 VIENNA INSTRUMENTS' Library. The number of instruments is bassicly the same (WTF?) I do not understand this (?) The main differences seem to be in the number and quality of articulations and the fact that in in Kontakt 5 samples are already put through reverb (therefore you do not start with dry samples)...

Is it possible that only those two differences make so much difference in price?


....so, let my update my wants and needs.

Full VSL library (however it does not be exaclty full, 4 main strings - (violin, viola, cello and double bass), the most important instruments from woodwinds, brass and persussion sections BASICALLY all the instruments which can be found in KONTAKT 5 would be sufficient + 12, 13 articulations for each instrument , is there such option when buying VSL ? Probably not.

Listen to the 2nd sample from here:

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/kontakt-5/?content=936

Articulation here is rather poor, for instance tremolo sounds rather poor, don't you think?

 

Just save up around 10.000 Euros and get the stuff...it's worth it!

 

Honestly? I am just starting the whole journey with orchestration. I do not need ALL this stuff man Of course if someone was to give me the full original VSL Library for free, I would not hesitate to take it hehehe
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But VSL company is selling their samples to Native Instruments up to this day, right? Is there any article in internet which descibes this VSL/NI cooperation more thoroughly?

 

All products except for maybe 5-10 come with standard and full versions so one link doesn't cover it all. This is a good example:
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/412/355/600/397.htm

The flute in standard Woodwinds I (€425) comes with staccato, short portato, sustained, sustained vibrato, cresc vib 3 sec, cresc vib 6 sec, dim vib 3 sec, dim vib 6 sec, fp without vig, sf without vb, flutter with different dynamics, minor and major second trills, legato, slow legato, fast portato, fast staccato. That's over 15 articulations.
The full version (€890) adds medium portato, long portato, tongue staccato, sustained with progressive vibrato, medium cresc and diminuendo with vibrato 2, 3 and 5 sec etc, I'm not going to count it, it's maybe over 60 articulations total.

Sample size of the Kontakt VSL Orchestra is 12GB or something. The 6(!) sounds that come with Vienna Ensemble Pro are already 9GB and that's compressed. They cut dynamic layers, chromatic samples and even the range of the contra bassoon and bass clarinet have been altered.

The Kontakt samples are not put through reverb, you can put the reverb off and add your own convolution.

Just start with the SE and SE+ pack, it covers most of the instruments in Kontakt. Except for the près-de-la-table playing of the harp, that's only in one very expensive expansion, lol.

I think the programming is the biggest problem here. And for you it'll be much more fun to master the programs you have before you throw money at something this big.
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I think VSL licensed NI to sell this particular set of instruments in the Kontakt library. They're not working together as far as I know, they don't even sell their products in a Kontakt compatible version anymore.

 

So you propose this one 'Just start with':

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/261/314/1607/1625/604.htm

According to this link the difference between extended version and full one comes down to the number of samples (because the number of articulations in extended and full version is the same)? What it means - the number of samples?

Again.
Between Standard and Full version there is an extended one which according to this page for Woodwinds I consist of all articulations you enlisted in full version. What is the difference between extended and full then ? In the number of samples? What it means - the number of samples?

Lets say I bought SE/SE+ bundle FULL VERSION - does it have the same number of articulations which can be found in each FULL VERSION of SHARED INSTRUMENTS between SE/SE+ bundle and each instrument pack if I bought each instrument pack separately) for instance the number articulations in SHARED INSTRUMENTS between FULL VERSION of SE/SE+ bundle and FULL VERSION of for instance http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/412/355/222.htm is the same?

 

Links don't work so I'll just say "the Special Edition Bundle" is a good deal. It has Special Edition and Special Edition +.
Unlike other products, the Special Edition + gives you the extra articulations. The extended libraries give you more instruments, like second oboe, 20 piece violin section, chamber string sections, special brass, etc.

In other products the extended library gives you extra articulations. "Full" means Standard+Extended library.

The number of samples in the full version of the bundle is the same as all SE standard+extended libraries seperately. EDIT: the DVD instruments are far more extensive, both in the number of samples and in articulations.

 

So you plan to first buy standard SE/SE+ bundle and then buy particular DVD instruments separately (for instance http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/412/355/222.htm etc.)?

 

No, I will buy the SE/SE+ extended libraries for woodwinds and brass after that.
Here you can see what's in which library: http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/261/314/1607/1625/604.htm
The light blocks are the standard SE/SE+ libraries.
The grey blocks are the extended libraries for SE/SE+.

The SE/SE+ extended string libraries have chamber strings and apassionata strings. Don't need them that bad.
The SE/SE+ extended woodwind libraries have second and alto flute, flute ensemble, viennese oboe, oboe d'amore, oboe ensemble, e flat clar, basset horn, clarinet ensemble, bassoon ensemble and saxophones. So I need those.
The SE/SE+ extended brass libraries have viennese horns, 8 horn ensemble, piccolo and muted trumpet, muted trumpet ensemble, contrabass trombone, muted trombone, muted trombone ensemble, contrabass tuba and wagner tuba. I want those too.
The SE extended percussion library has harpsichord, organ and guitars. Don't need it that bad.

So: Standard SE/SE+ bundle is 620. To buy what's in it seperately would be 775. Extented libraries to everything are 740 but I only need two, that's 460.

 

Is it passible to buy only chosen extensions?

From what I can see on the page if you buy an extended version you buy ALL the extensions...

 

To the left there are different tabs where you can see what you can order. You can buy and download the seperate groups of the SE/SE+ libraries, both standard and full. You can't buy the extended library though if you don't have the standard library of the same group. And if you bought a downloadable standard SE/SE+ library you can't combine it with the dvd extended SE/SE+ library because the extended library is on the standard dvd, it's just disabled.

As you can tell I spent a lot of time in that jungle out there. I originally posted a question at the forum "how to avoid buying the same samples twice" asking how I could limit myself to buying things that were NOT in the Kontakt 4 library. I only got the answer to forget about the Kontakt 4 library because it works better to have everything working with the VSL software.

So... I could buy SE+ standard strings to get the articulations I need but I would also need SE woodwind standard to get the bass clarinet and contra bassoon. And then the muted trumpet, that's only in the full brass SE. In the end you don't save money by not buying the same sounds because the bundle is cheaper.

 

How about doing it the other way around:

buying the standard SE/SE+ boundle DVD collection and buying the downloadable extended libraries to the partucular instruments - is it compatible then (not disabled)? Isn't it the exact way you plan to do?

 

That's supposed to work. I'll already have the extended libraries on dvd so when I pay for them they'll get authorized.